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Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

mtlynch.io

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Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#181
post #34
post #2

Author here. Happy to answer any questions about the post or about my experience at Google.

Early on in the article you describe the excitement your younger self had a the prospect of working with the "best engineers in the world". However further down you describe your difficulties with some products - undocumented code with no unit tests and silent failures which are hard-to-diagnose. Has your opinion changed about this at all? I am not sure how indicative these descriptions are to overall quality at Goog…

I too was also intrigued by the statement "best engineers in the world" and then subsequently reading that Google engineers suffer from the same BS as any average software company.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#182

To author: you lost the political game. I busted my ass at a startup for years and also lost the political game. So I'm speaking from experience here. You can either get all mad and worked up and pissed off about it, and waste years of your career (as I did) being pissed off, stubborn, and refusing to change. Or figure out how to play. I'd like to think there are places with better politics but I think it's pretty en…

As a junior engineer, what the best way to learn about and master the political game? I feel like it all goes way over my head. Does anyone have any recommended reading?

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#183
Speaking as a >6 year veteran (Xoogler) some of this rings true. Still a couple of points:

> No, managers at Google can’t promote their direct reports. They don’t even get a vote.

This isn't quite true. It's true that the promo committee doesn't include your manager and it's that committee's vote that determines your promotion BUT your manager does get to say whether or not they support your promotion.

Anecdotally, committees expect to see manager support so if a potential promotee has it, it doesn't mean a lot unless there is a lot of specific information that the manager can provide to support the promotion (ideally peer feedback should do this anyway). It tends to be an issue if your manager doesn't support your promotion however. And this happens. It also happens that people get promoted without manager support.

Personally I never understood how this situation arose. I operate under the principle that there should never be "negative surprise". So if your manager doesn't support your promotion (which, hopefully, is solely because it's the manager's informed belief that it won't pass committee) then the report should already know this before they decide to submit for promotion. If they don't, that's a giant manager fail.

If the report goes up anyway, if I were a manager there's absolutely nothing to be gained from not supporting the promotion.

Moving on to the other points:

> Metrics or it didn’t happen

There's a lot of truth to it but not in the way the guy intends I think. He goes on to say that there were no metrics for what he was doing.

Well that's the first problem. You should create them. And it sounds like this guy was looking to a T4 to T5 promotion. There's a certain amount of independence and proactiveness required for T5+ so not creating the metrics to measure his successes by is an issue.

The manager again bears some responsibility for this. One of the primary jobs of a SWE manager (IMHO) is coaching their reports for situations like this and building their careers.

A better way to say this is that impact matters. Working on a bunch of small, unrelated things is not impact. Promotion isn't a matter of doing a lot of work or being helpfully necessarily. By T5+ it's an issue of having impact across your project and to your wider team.

Also, it's worth noting that often people do have to go up for the same promo twice. The natural instinct for committees is not to promote and they'll give you feedback as to why. So then 6 months down the track you submit an updated packet that includes all the ways you've addressed the previous committee's feedback. That's really common.

As for the holiday gift, yeah I was there for that. All I was say is that it was bad optics, particularly in light of say, how much money was handed out to Levandowski. The argument was that it was too expensive to adminster across so many different countries. This may be true but it feels like penny-pinching and cost-cutting. And as they say, as soon as they take away the free drinks it's time to pack your bags. The issue isn't the free drinks, it's what it signals.

Project cancellation! Been there twice. It's highly demotivating.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#184
post #169
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked in a remote team once helping a company in Seattle (that perhaps had a bit of a jock culture problem). I could be stuck for days because following the README in a repo just wasn't enough to get the project to compile and run. Every standup I was telling "I'm completely blocked for the last two days because I cannot run the repo, so I cannot run any tests and at the moment I'm doing absolutely nothing.". To b…

This is endemic to our industry. The problem really is short-sighted management. They only value something that shows themselves in good light with their superiors. Managers absolutely don't seem to care about actually building a team and cultivating a culture of success. Engineering managers are way way worse than Soccer managers in this regard. I would put this all on the hiring processes right from how we hire eng…

I'd add another component:

The people usually tasked with figuring these things out are new to the team. There can be all kinds of politics and interpersonal baggage with helping the new person with old configuration/ compilation/ deployment stuff.

Often, it'll take one of the legacy leads to step in and clean things up. By then, everyone's annoyed at the new person, and the failure of this effort will get saddled on their back for some time more.

I had this exact issue at a recent gig, and the application architect spent months poking at jenkins to get a clean build. Once he quit in frustration, one of the legacy leads re-engineered the whole thing, in a different language, in a few days.

Legacy lead was one of those "untouchables" in the eyes of the CEO, so there was no influencing him to help earlier, and his reticence cost us a good application architect.

To my mind, this is often a sign of a poisoned, political company culture. The work can be done, but there are non-technical reasons why progress can't be made, even by earnest effort.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#185

To author: you lost the political game. I busted my ass at a startup for years and also lost the political game. So I'm speaking from experience here. You can either get all mad and worked up and pissed off about it, and waste years of your career (as I did) being pissed off, stubborn, and refusing to change. Or figure out how to play. I'd like to think there are places with better politics but I think it's pretty en…

> Second, you're a lot better off working at a good company -- MUCH better off I disagree. There is a whole category of people who want high reward for their efforts. There exists no way to get high rewards or royalties outside of starting your own venture. The downside is the risk of course. I do agree that you shouldn't be angry, but there are so many new ways to exist and survive these days.

I completely agree.

My point is opportunity cost. Unless you have a very clear idea of what you want to do/build--which many people do--you're better off with a day job.

I see a lot of people essentially rage-quitting (let's be serious, that's what happened here) and then wasting years of their life working bottom-of-the-barrel contracting/crappy startup jobs because they "don't like big companies". I made this mistake and it's cost me enormously in money, time, and career development.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#186
post #182

To author: you lost the political game. I busted my ass at a startup for years and also lost the political game. So I'm speaking from experience here. You can either get all mad and worked up and pissed off about it, and waste years of your career (as I did) being pissed off, stubborn, and refusing to change. Or figure out how to play. I'd like to think there are places with better politics but I think it's pretty en…

As a junior engineer, what the best way to learn about and master the political game? I feel like it all goes way over my head. Does anyone have any recommended reading?

The 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene is an absolute must, regardless of the position.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice. Do you think large companies would benefit from a different scheme that rewards employees who "think like an owner"? (pardon the oft-used phrase)

At risk of stating the obvious, not all the medium/large tech companies work as described in this article. At Atlassian, for example, the direct managers are the ones who make promotion recommendations, it’s very much driven by your contributions on your team, whether accompanied by shiny metrics or not.

It is, to some extent, a direct function of scale. The larger you get, the more you need to rely on systems instead of individuals - because it's easier for bad apples to hide in the noise. (How's that for a horribly confusing metaphor? ;)

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#188
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am manager who has a few levels under me (Total team of about 100 people). I find it difficult to buy into your experience, and hear me out. I am arguing in your favor. If you are assisting, and this includes providing support for someone else's code, or doing "invisible" tasks (setting up a redis cluster or writing end-to-end tests), this often finds its way into one email group or another. In fact I remember the…

Yea if a developer helps someone there is no guarantee that there will be an email chain generated as proof. If you truly believe this in all due respect you are out of touch with reality. People still walk up and ask for help. Maybe not in remote teams but in the office all the time. Supposedly making these type of interactions possible is the whole point of open offices

Yes, people who have been around the block come to the same realization that the author does re: filing bugs. Any type of written communication or record that is not either undeniably necessary or unambiguously favorable must be avoided.

I've had the experience several times where extensive, detailed emails would always meet the same reply: "Thanks. Let's talk about it in the morning." These people are wise to the game, and they rely heavily on the imperfect nature of human memory; memorialization in the written record must be approached very carefully.

The email chain that shows Employee A to be a hero equally shows Employee B as a victim in constant need of assistance, obstructing other work, taking valuable time from others. As such, "Bs" will avoid asking in a recorded form, avoid giving credit to helpers when writing about their work, and so forth. Even if they mean well and earnestly want to credit the many people who've helped, it's too easy for a malevolent actor to turn it against them, so after a few raw experiences, they learn to avoid it -- just like what happens in the article.

The only real answer to these questions is to have an informed, rigorous, and fair-minded chain of command that has experience and cares deeply for the company's long-term well-being, which is, needless to say, quite rare. It is also worth noting that such noble persons are likely hurting themselves by acting this way and making enemies for themselves, as people who truly didn't deserve promotions, etc., whine and search for flimsy excuses.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#189
post #103

> Google does a good job of building a sense of community within the organization. That is the true test. You are supposed to pretend only to buy into it but never really believe it. Understanding that things function on two levels is critical. One level is the superficial "we are a family, community, we are not evil, making the world better". But that's the trap to catch all the naive people and extract extra work h…

Thanks for sharing that. That describes feelings I had working there. I think the idea of rules and meta-rules is a good way of explaining it.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#190
Google has one of the worst monocultures I've ever seen in my life with a heavy emphasis on commoditization. It's a giant machine treating software engineers as nothing more than easily replaceable cogs.

The perks and "easygoing" atmosphere play into this facade and are designed to delay the process of discovery. If you are after [significant] material benefits, by all means go work for Google but be prepared to be treated like a commodity. Ideally you will go through the same process of discovery the author did, faster, and will be able to adapt to extract the most out of the situation.

If you think programming is an art and despise corporate processes that constantly devalue it, then Google is one of the worst places you could be.

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