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Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

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Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#121

Post by sdiepend »

phamilton wrote: post #64

Writing documentation and fixing bugs is in fact not the bar for a senior software engineer. I don't disagree with the promotion committee on that front. IIRC, Senior Software Engineer is a terminal level. You aren't expected to advance any more once you reach that level. Some do, but you can stay a Senior Engineer for the rest of your career and that's fine. So certainly "can fix bugs and write docs and tests" isn't…

Diving into a old undocumented codebase and then deleting code, rewriting code and document it without breaking stuff can be more challenging than designing and writing new code.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#122

Post by hinkley »

dahart wrote: post #29

> I drastically reduced the time developers spent repairing those failures, but there were no metrics that tracked developer time. For several jobs in a row, I've felt that helping others on a team is undervalued and under-recorded. I've been planning to implement the "assist" metric, similar to basketball, on my own team for a while. The idea would be something along the lines of everyone gets a set of assist points…

Every lead developer position I ever got came from helping people, but that doesn’t always stop the judging on output.

On one project I shaved about 40 minutes to an hour per day of finger twiddling frustration off of everyone’s work. For the team size that paid for itself in under two months. Only ever got appreciation from subordinates and flack from my good for nothing boss.

But what I figured out not long after that was that you understand the work a lot better when you see it from other peoples perspectives, and you only learn about that if you are willing to help and to be candid about the state of the project. People open up. They share maybe-bugs before filing them (especially from the QA team) and then when the inevitable OH SHIT meeting happens you are the only one who has had time to think about a solution ahead of time.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#123

Post by paganel »

wehadfun wrote: post #94
somberi wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am manager who has a few levels under me (Total team of about 100 people). I find it difficult to buy into your experience, and hear me out. I am arguing in your favor. If you are assisting, and this includes providing support for someone else's code, or doing "invisible" tasks (setting up a redis cluster or writing end-to-end tests), this often finds its way into one email group or another. In fact I remember the…

Yea if a developer helps someone there is no guarantee that there will be an email chain generated as proof. If you truly believe this in all due respect you are out of touch with reality. People still walk up and ask for help. Maybe not in remote teams but in the office all the time. Supposedly making these type of interactions possible is the whole point of open offices

> People still walk up and ask for help

In my experience people also ask for help through private messenger discussions (slack/skype etc), which of course don't leave any "official" trail and are not supposed to. Of course, a not-so-bright manager could force his/her direct reports to only use "official" channels for work-related communications, but then people would be afraid/ashamed to ask "stupid questions" in public/through an official channel and then disaster happens (it's also my experience that lots of serious bugs have been caused by people afraid/ashamed to "just ask").

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#124

Post by bjornlouser »

somberi wrote: post #75
dahart wrote: post #29

> I drastically reduced the time developers spent repairing those failures, but there were no metrics that tracked developer time. For several jobs in a row, I've felt that helping others on a team is undervalued and under-recorded. I've been planning to implement the "assist" metric, similar to basketball, on my own team for a while. The idea would be something along the lines of everyone gets a set of assist points…

I am manager who has a few levels under me (Total team of about 100 people). I find it difficult to buy into your experience, and hear me out. I am arguing in your favor. If you are assisting, and this includes providing support for someone else's code, or doing "invisible" tasks (setting up a redis cluster or writing end-to-end tests), this often finds its way into one email group or another. In fact I remember the…

"I say show me email chains, and I will show a hero."

Will show you a hero six months after they tendered resignation.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#125

Post by whataretensors »

eldavido wrote: post #91

To author: you lost the political game. I busted my ass at a startup for years and also lost the political game. So I'm speaking from experience here. You can either get all mad and worked up and pissed off about it, and waste years of your career (as I did) being pissed off, stubborn, and refusing to change. Or figure out how to play. I'd like to think there are places with better politics but I think it's pretty en…

> Second, you're a lot better off working at a good company -- MUCH better off

I disagree. There is a whole category of people who want high reward for their efforts. There exists no way to get high rewards or royalties outside of starting your own venture. The downside is the risk of course.

I do agree that you shouldn't be angry, but there are so many new ways to exist and survive these days.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#126

Post by ithinkinstereo »

eldavido wrote: post #91

To author: you lost the political game. I busted my ass at a startup for years and also lost the political game. So I'm speaking from experience here. You can either get all mad and worked up and pissed off about it, and waste years of your career (as I did) being pissed off, stubborn, and refusing to change. Or figure out how to play. I'd like to think there are places with better politics but I think it's pretty en…

Working for yourself really does mean working for yourself.

Yes, you might have customers to answer to, but you can always tell them to fuck off if you want.

You suffer the consequences and reap the rewards. Your actions, small or large, matter.

Yes, working for a corporation is safer and more stable. In the grand scheme of things, this is the risk-adverse, safe thing to do.

The OP may waste years of his life, or he may not. He may end up poorer than when he left or he may not.

You never know until you try. Take it or leave it.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#127

Post by mgkimsal »

shados wrote: post #54
dahart wrote: post #29

> I drastically reduced the time developers spent repairing those failures, but there were no metrics that tracked developer time. For several jobs in a row, I've felt that helping others on a team is undervalued and under-recorded. I've been planning to implement the "assist" metric, similar to basketball, on my own team for a while. The idea would be something along the lines of everyone gets a set of assist points…

In one of my previous teams, we did away with individual metrics because they "punished" team players. If an engineer spent most of a week helping another with their issue, it made them look bad in whatever tracker we used by almost every metric. I prefered sticking to trying to optimize whole team velocity and using 1 on 1s and peer reviews to track individual performance where it was needed (eg: compensation review…

relatedly, a friend of mine worked at a place where everyone was on "20% time = bug time". You were expected to spend ~ 20% of your time taking bugs from the bug tracker and fixing them. Bugs closed were part of a metric towards bonuses.

People were taking one bug, breaking it in to 3 or 4, then closing all of those.

"Add button for X" became

* "add button on form" * "add CSS for button" * "update CSS for button" * "add CSS files to build process"

Friend of mine took a bug - it was a moderately big one, touched multiple systems, but was a bear to work on. No one else touched it. He spent a few weeks making it work. Eventually closed it. Was reprimanded because his bug-closing stats were bringing down the department's numbers. He was counseled that he should have broken it down in to a few dozen issues, so that he could have closed more and "kept up" with his team mates.

No one else would touch that bug. Most people hadn't been there long enough to decipher how complex it was. But.... they got bigger bonuses because ... bug closing numbers.

We all probably have similar stories to share, and I know the "what gets measured gets gamed" mantra.

It's still frustrating to know that this mentality infects so many professional "thought workers".

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#128

Post by petre »

Quarrelsome wrote: post #40

This is why its healthier to always run with the premise that you're leaving at some point and its the employer's responsibility to keep you there and give you interesting and rewarding work. If you're asking them to promote you then its the wrong way round, they should be asking on you about whether you're staying there. That's how the market is today.

It really depends on the economic climate, the size of the company and the risks you afford to take, otherwise I generally agree.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#129

Post by ChuckMcM »

Wow, that was exactly the mechanic I observed when working there. The result was pockets in the company where people worked on stuff that they didn't understand and were not (yet?) clued in that nothing they did would get them promoted and yet if they broke anything it would get them fired. Helping those groups to change things for the better should have been a pretty impressive thing, but my observation was that wasn't understood by the promotion committee.

Re: Why I Quit Google to Work for Myself

#130

Post by the_arun »

If you %s/google//g , the story wouldn't change. It depends on the way you showcase your work to your management and peers is the secret of the success. But for some it is against idealism and "do good" nature. This same story happened to me but in another enterprise. The solution that worked for me is to find a Manager who knows your talent and gives you freedom and he does the marketing for your work knowing your strength. But it is uncommon to find a good manager that fits above qualities.
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