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Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

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Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#91
post #82
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could go into the black hole yourself but you'd need to communicate the results of your experiment by twitching the second hand on your daughter's watch who, conveniently, works for NASA.

Interstellar infuriated me worse than the average “space opera” Star Wars / Star Trek -type crap because it spread the pretence of being scientifically accurate and plausible. Before we get to the black holes part... why didn't they have timestamped signals from the surface of that water-planet? Why didn't they go into a polar orbit (as opposed to equatorial orbit) around it so as to minimise the cumulative time dila…

In the first place it is just ridiculous to envision settling humanity on to a planet so close to a supermassive black hole & experiencing such extreme time dilation. It was foolish to have sent an astronaut there at all, let alone the later party going to check on her. But then, Kip Thorne confessed that Miller's Planet was essentially something the studios demanded and he wasn't given an option to exclude it. He wasn't even given an option to make the time dilation less extreme.

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#92
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gravitational collapse overwhelms fusion pressure much before the black hole stage is reached, i.e., neutron stars. Also general relativity seems to indicate unambiguously that the in-falling matter collapses to a singularity, which obviously cannot have any kind of structure or process inside it. I guess only a quantum theory of gravity can clear up this enigma.

(Not to mention that once one has crossed the Schartzchild Radius time dilation becomes infinite from the perspective of the outer universe, and time freezes, so any process becomes frozen in its tracks, at least from the perspective of external observers.)

Yes, but that process is never truly reached since time has to slow down infinitely for that to happen.

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#93
post #24

Black holes are an excellent example for so called "cognitive metaphors". Because we found no better analogy, we named them "holes" despite the fact that they are basically the opposite: an object with enormous mass. This influences our thinking and our language when we discuss problems concerning black holes. We talk about "inside the black hole", "light cannot escape the black hole" or "spitting things out of the b…

> Because we found no better analogy, we named them "holes" despite the fact that they are basically the opposite: an object with enormous mass. Strictly speaking, the defining character is enormous density , not mass. And the black hole is arguably a name for an effect of the object, not the object itself; the object itself is (or is in the process of becoming; verb tenses get weird when time gets weird) infinitesim…

A black hole can literally be considered severely warped spacetime. The high gravity is a consequence of the severe warping, and as for the internal contents, they don't matter to external observers and physics (so far) has very little to say about it.

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#94
post #13
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a black hole without a singularity? A neutron star? Is there a distinction you are making? To me a black hole and a singularity are the same thing. Are you using a different definition? > Quark degeneracy pressure isn’t going to support the mass of millions, or even billions of suns. Why not? If the star is very large the density (and thus gravity) never get high enough. For example, if you consider the milky…

A better definition is a black hole is something with an event horizon. (for your last comment, see my previous response)

> something with an event horizon.

... where the vast majority of that something's mass and charge are within the event horizon. To keep Birkhoff happy, and to avoid confusion with event horizons that pop up where a black hole clearly isn't, maybe add that in a small region of spacetime mass and charge inside an event horizon is a black hole if after stationarization electromagnetic and gravitational perturbations in the Schwarzschild metric are small compared to those in e.g. the Minkowski or Robertson-Walker metrics.

I'm tempted to go the other direction: a physically reasonable arrangement of stress-energy can source a black-hole-like metric and that a black hole metric (i.e., an exact solution for a mathematical black hole, like Kerr-Newman) can usefully approximate such that there is a good match between the geodesics structure around a mathematical black hole and the behaviour of observed matter in the vicinity of a black hole candidate.

A practical probe of the null geodesics structure around a BH candidate is surface emissions: we routinely detect them directly and through analyses of radiative efficiency for neutron stars and white dwarfs (whether or not these compact objects are accreting), and a detection of surface emission from a compact BH candidate would rule it out as a source of a BH metric. If all BH candidates have surface emissions, then BH metrics are a poor choice of modelling tool. However candidates which survive this probe and other tests of near-horizon geodesics structure might as well be called black holes, even if we have reasons to hope (or even doubt) that its mass and charge within the apparent horizon is concentrated in the singularity point.

You'll note here that I'm taking a "quacks like a duck" view of astrophysical black holes; I'd go even further and want to be agnostic about event horizon vs trapping surface and so forth. Around BH-like objects, arranged by increasing ease of observation, there will be a predictable (set of) ISCO(s) below which free-falling trajectories always decay or plunge inward (or outward if retrograde); there will be very strong gravitational lensing; there will be characteristic outflows from Penrose-like mechanisms; and a characteristic efficiency in conversion of accretion matter into radiation compared to matter accreting onto non-BH objects of similar mass. These all depend on whether the exterior region near the candidate object is like that of an exact BH solution, and when you have all of the above, and no evidence to the contrary, it is pretty safe to assume there is something very similar to an event horizon dividing the near-exterior region from the non-exterior region(s).

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#95
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gravitational collapse overwhelms fusion pressure much before the black hole stage is reached, i.e., neutron stars. Also general relativity seems to indicate unambiguously that the in-falling matter collapses to a singularity, which obviously cannot have any kind of structure or process inside it. I guess only a quantum theory of gravity can clear up this enigma.

(Not to mention that once one has crossed the Schartzchild Radius time dilation becomes infinite from the perspective of the outer universe, and time freezes, so any process becomes frozen in its tracks, at least from the perspective of external observers.)

Why does the perspective of outside observers matter at that point? Aren't we talking about what happens inside?

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#96

If the speed of light of this universe was raised significantly, is there some point where black holes would be impossible to form? I assume if the speed of light were lowered black holes would become far more common?

Yeah but if you do that, then you'll get a universe that's not this universe. Speed of light affects much of physics and causality.

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#97
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Not to mention that once one has crossed the Schartzchild Radius time dilation becomes infinite from the perspective of the outer universe, and time freezes, so any process becomes frozen in its tracks, at least from the perspective of external observers.)

Why does the perspective of outside observers matter at that point? Aren't we talking about what happens inside?

True, for the in-falling person, the outside observer's perspective doesn't matter and vice versa. But what happens inside is, (and probably will always be), entirely theoretical, but we can observe the space just outside the event horizon.

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#98
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, that's exactly what I understand. But we don't care about the infalling object. We care about the observer, because any infalling object initially is an observer, and because we (us humans) are observing the black holes. Since from an observers POV nothing can actually fall into the black hole, no black hole can form. The fact that an infalling object reaches the black hole makes no difference to us. Because of t…

> Since from an observers POV nothing can actually fall into the black hole, no black hole can form. The event horizon isn't really a physical boundary in that sense. It's the mathematical boundary at which, according to general relativity, a particle must have velocity equal to the speed of light in order to escape. A density change inside the star can change the size and shape of that boundary without things fallin…

> a particle must have velocity equal to the speed of light in order to escape

This has always confused me. Does a photon have mass? I've always thought the answer is no and so I don't understand why even light can't escape from a black hole.

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a misconception of spacetime. The object exists, it just consumes faster than it dissipates mater. Just because there's no discoverable interaction between the consumed matter doesn't mean it doesn't happen, which is all time really illustrates.

From our external perspective, they never happen. The time they use to happen in doesn't exist.

So, in our reference frame, black holes never grow from original collapse and remain in that same state, tiny mass and size, no matter what falls into it. Wait, no. It loses mass through particle emission, which is assumed to actually happen. This puzzle was worth investigating when I learned this topic (not sure I understood all math and concepts correctly though).

Re: Most images of black holes are illustrations. Here’s what our telescopes capture

#100
post #24

Black holes are an excellent example for so called "cognitive metaphors". Because we found no better analogy, we named them "holes" despite the fact that they are basically the opposite: an object with enormous mass. This influences our thinking and our language when we discuss problems concerning black holes. We talk about "inside the black hole", "light cannot escape the black hole" or "spitting things out of the b…

> Because we found no better analogy, we named them "holes" despite the fact that they are basically the opposite: an object with enormous mass.

No, they actually are holes. We don’t need analogies or metaphors to describe black holes. Their mathematical properties are quite complicated to define and we have to reason about what happens around or inside them using figurative thought experiments, but their action does correspond to our intuitive sense of what a hole is.

In particular, a black hole consists of an event horizon, around which various stable and unstable orbits are possible, and within which is a theoretical singularity. The event horizon perfectly corresponds to the mathematical concept of a hole, which is a pure abstraction of our common sense of a hole, not a metaphor. A hole is a lack of points in a dimensional space, which means everything inside the event horizon is as much a hole as a manhole in a street is a hole (information theoretically speaking, the inside of a black hole is nothing). To say a black hole is a hole is not a cognitive metaphor, because space around the event horizon actually does curve down to something that is a physical hole. Instead, here are two examples of cognitive metaphors:

1. A donut is a 3-dimensional space with a topological hole in the middle of it. Suppose I define the mathematical properties of taste and equip it as the only sense you have for investigation. Then the hole of a donut tastes like nothing because it is nothing, in the same sense that we can know nothing about the inside of a black hole because it is nothing.

2. Roll a quarter at an angle down a spherical curvature with a hole in the center. The quarter will gradually descend down the curvature, with each revolution about the center happening faster and faster. Finally, it will simply drop it. This is analogous to deteriorating your orbit around a black hole, until you enter various unstable orbits and finally fall into the event horizon.

Obviously these cognitive metaphors, while instructive, are imperfect. For instance, we can see a quarter drop into the hole, but we’d never actually see a shuttle fall into the event horizon. On the other hand, the event horizon is a hole in the same sense that a manhole is a hole. Comparing it to a manhole is another cognitive metaphor; calling it a hole isn’t, because it is one.

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