The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model • Hacker News Board

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#61

Post by Godel_unicode » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 5:37 AM UTC

gruez wrote: post #24

giovannibajo1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn’t work as well because the counter is kept in the Secure Enclave so it’s not part of the flash contents. Also the exponential delay in attempts is enforced by the enclave. Previous iOS versions used to have some small window where you could race and power off after trying a passcode but before the enclave had incremented the counter, but that bug was fixed long ago. Maybe there are others unknown bugs of s…

>That doesn’t work as well because the counter is kept in the Secure Enclave so it’s not part of the flash contents I skimmed the secure enclave documentation at https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf (page 5, 14, 15), and I can't find anything to confirm that.

"On devices with Secure Enclave, the delays are enforced by the Secure Enclave coprocessor." Page 15

It was also confirmed explicitly during the Q&A at the blackhat talk in 2016, which I believe is on YouTube.

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#62

Post by walrus01 » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 5:37 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #26

IBM wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The story I hear is that Cellebrite hires ex-Apple engineers and moves them to countries where Apple can't prosecute them under the DMCA or its equivalents. Crazy if true. Doesn't this also create a weird incentive problem where the FBI (or any other law enforcement agency) who would normally be tasked with helping Apple with this doesn't actually want to?

So Israel is like a high tech Guantanamo where our government goes when those pesky laws get in the way.

Within ten seconds of searching my memory I can think of at least three Israeli companies that are known for researching/hoarding secret zero days and making use of them for large sums of money. Cellebrite, NSO, and Elbit.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2016/08/25/every...

Elbit is a big defense contractor and basically wants to simultaneously be a competitor of General Dynamics and Palantir.

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#63

Post by gamblor956 » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 5:39 AM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #34

craftyguy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breathalyzers will tell you what's up right on the spot, unless you've come across some that require the cops to collect a jar of your breath for processing at some remote discrete location?

Breathalyzers are easily tampered with by police to provide false readings. One case of this in New Jersey could have potentially thrown out 20,000 DWI cases. But breathalyzer results in cases today are not thrown out after pointing this out.

It's irrelevant that breathalyzers in New Jersey were tampered with. You would need to show evidence that the breathalyzer in your specific case was tampered with. It's a basic rule of evidence...

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#64

Post by forapurpose » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 5:48 AM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #58

programmarchy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the executive team is Japanese (the CEO is Israeli), and most of the positions they are hiring for are located in Israel...

Relative to the size of its population, Israel has a highly developed electronics engineering related industry. Part of it related to their state support of domestic defense contractors like IAI and their avionics/radar/C4I equipment. Aside from Cellbrite, companies like Ceragon, Alvarion, Radwin, ECI, Telrad, Elbit. Second hand knowledge: Within international organizations that have worked extensively in the Israel-…

> Relative to the size of its population, Israel has a highly developed electronics engineering related industry. Part of it related to their state support of domestic defense contractors ...

It's not due only to Israeli resources. Much of Israel's defense budget comes from the U.S., plus there is much more support, including technology transfer, that isn't provided in cash.

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#65

Post by Godel_unicode » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 5:48 AM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #16

julianj wrote: post #13

I wish there was a kind of "dead man switch" app that would wipe a device if it is not unlocked for x days or met some other kind of personalized criteria.

An app would need an environment to run in, but the main CPU/etc may not be available if the recovery process involves removing chips or other hardware modifications. A better idea would be to put an RTC + watchdog timer[1] into the security chip that holds the keys and power it continuously with a small amount of external power. The power must be available and the watchdog timer must have time remaining to disconnec…

Apple is being sued for making phones slightly slower, can you imagine the lawsuit if they were "deliberately lobotomizing" phones? You know that's how it would be said...

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#66

Post by anilgulecha » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 5:55 AM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #59

userbinator wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or prying open the Secure Enclave to obtain the Unique ID People have been cracking secure coprocessors of the type used in payment cards, TPMs, and the like for a long time, dare I say even those which were designed to a higher level of security than Apple's. The fact that there is an entire phone attached to it doesn't make much of a difference, but the technology behind this (FIB, microprobing, etc.) has been stea…

Fwiw, Apple has a $100k bounty on this type of exploit (pulling secrets from the secure enclave).

I'm sure companies, like the one in the article, will pay substantially more for them.

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#67

Post by OkGoDoIt » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 5:58 AM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #59

userbinator wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or prying open the Secure Enclave to obtain the Unique ID People have been cracking secure coprocessors of the type used in payment cards, TPMs, and the like for a long time, dare I say even those which were designed to a higher level of security than Apple's. The fact that there is an entire phone attached to it doesn't make much of a difference, but the technology behind this (FIB, microprobing, etc.) has been stea…

Fwiw, Apple has a $100k bounty on this type of exploit (pulling secrets from the secure enclave).

But Cellebrite apparently makes millions off of its service, so the economic incentives are still on their side.

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#68

Post by justonepost » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 6:06 AM UTC

IBM wrote: post #7

eridius wrote: post #2

Bruce Schneier says¹: > There's also a credible rumor that Cellebrite's mechanisms only defeat the mechanism that limits the number of password attempts. It does not allow engineers to move the encrypted data off the phone and run an offline password cracker. If this is true, then strong passwords are still secure. ¹ https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/02/cellebrite_un...

>The story I hear is that Cellebrite hires ex-Apple engineers and moves them to countries where Apple can't prosecute them under the DMCA or its equivalents. Crazy if true. Doesn't this also create a weird incentive problem where the FBI (or any other law enforcement agency) who would normally be tasked with helping Apple with this doesn't actually want to?

Sounds like some bizarre William Gibson novel, but then most things do nowadays.

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#69

Post by tempay » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 6:06 AM UTC

bitmapbrother wrote: post #49

eridius wrote: post #2

Bruce Schneier says¹: > There's also a credible rumor that Cellebrite's mechanisms only defeat the mechanism that limits the number of password attempts. It does not allow engineers to move the encrypted data off the phone and run an offline password cracker. If this is true, then strong passwords are still secure. ¹ https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/02/cellebrite_un...

They could also have iOS 11 jailbreak exploits in their possession. iOS 11 was already jailbroken recently and the Project Zero team has also informed Apple of exploits they discovered.

Correct me if I’m wrong but this wouldn’t help? “Unlocking” in the context of the FBI and iPhones always seems to be based around making it possible to brute force a device in their posession, which also means strong passphrases will remain secure. This is an incredibly hostile environment to security, the fact that Apple make it as hard as they do is quite impressive.

Re: The Feds Can Now Probably Unlock Every iPhone Model

#70

Post by confounded » Wed, Feb 28, 2018, 6:11 AM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #58

programmarchy wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the executive team is Japanese (the CEO is Israeli), and most of the positions they are hiring for are located in Israel...

Relative to the size of its population, Israel has a highly developed electronics engineering related industry. Part of it related to their state support of domestic defense contractors like IAI and their avionics/radar/C4I equipment. Aside from Cellbrite, companies like Ceragon, Alvarion, Radwin, ECI, Telrad, Elbit. Second hand knowledge: Within international organizations that have worked extensively in the Israel-…

Specifically, many Israli tech people (and especially those in defense) seem to be “graduates” of the IDF’s 8200 SIGINT unit, which has close relationships with VCs in both Israel and the US.