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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#181

Post by Slansitartop »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #99
phyller wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or maybe he is the first of the next generation of leaders that has forgotten the lessons learned under Mao.

Xi came of age during the cultural revolution, which means he participated as a red guard, was sent down to the country side, went to college late, and much of his college education was ideological rather than practical. He is the first leader who is a career politician (has an engineering degree but never used it) and the first whose appointment is clearly about nepotism rather than merit. So...interesting guy.

> Xi came of age during the cultural revolution, which means he participated as a red guard

No, he did not "participate" as a Red Guard, he and his family were persecuted by them.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/26/world/asia/xi-jinping-car...

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#182

Post by elago »

mitchty wrote: post #153
elago wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a US citizen it is a valid argument because those "other guys" is our own country. It's not "don't go after those guys", but "take care of our own problems first". This way, when offering solutions to other oppressive countries we wouldn't look like hypocrites. Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise?

> Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise? Yes, they would be the ideal person to give that advice.

Dang, okay, that was a stupid analogy I made. It should have been something like "If you're obese and sickly, should you spend your time evangelizing the importance of diet and exercise to other unhealthy people instead of eating right and exercising yourself?" I don't think its even a good analogy anymore though.

I get that 'what-aboutism' is a logical fallacy in general, and it can prevent beneficial action from taking place. Isn't it a special case when the 'other party' is yourself? (obviously this is a US centric comment).

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#183

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

jack9 wrote: post #111
narrator wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With a dictatorship it really depends on the competence of the leadership. This is not a robust strategy for organizing human civilizations.

Really? Because stable singular hierarchies is exactly how we evolved to have civilization.

Not sure if I would agree, given that estimates suggest that homo sapiens had evolved approx 400k years ago, and most of recorded history (with the somewhat stable hierarchies) lasts, at most, 20k years. So potentially much of recorded history, but certainly not proven to be necessary for evolution.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#184

Post by AnimalMuppet »

jerf wrote: post #63
echevil wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more just because of them afraid of "losing face" like almost all Chinese people do. That's quite deep in Chinese culture. Even the most powerful emperors in Chinese history (who would have nothing to be afraid of) still executes those who talked ill of them

It's not just China. Being able to publicly yell "Fuck the $RULER" is an anomaly in human history, not the norm. In the US, the current party in power is always on the verge of instituting totalitarianism. My plan is to start worrying about it when people face systematic government consequences for actually mouthing off about the ruling party. Right now, to a first approximation, nobody has in a long time. Any exampl…

I suspect you're getting downvoted for this line:

> In the US, the current party in power is always on the verge of instituting totalitarianism.

And I'm pretty sure that you didn't mean it like people are taking it. Let's start with, I don't know, FDR. He was on the verge of implementing totalitarianism. Really! Just ask the Republicans of 1933! Clinton was. So was Bush. So was Obama. So is Trump. Or so some vocal minority says.

I'm pretty sure jerf is dismissive of all that noise, and intends to ignore it... within limits.

> My plan is to start worrying about it when people face systematic government consequences for actually mouthing off about the ruling party. Right now, to a first approximation, nobody has in a long time. Any examples that anxious partisans will rush to contradict me will simply further demonstrate my point with how minor and unsystematic they are in the US.

Downvoters, I think you're misreading one line, and reacting based on your misread.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#185

Post by lovich »

balthasar wrote: post #151
zentiggr wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typo there with _rose_ quality of life in Venezuela? Pretty sure we've watched that 'democratic' experiment fail spectacularly, at least what news I know of the economy and living conditions in general seem very poor at best. Failed state comes to mind.

What is the link between Chavez's policies and Venezuela's current economic condition?

What's the link between yesterday and today?

Chavez was the previous ruler and hasn't been gone so long that the systems he set up have been washed away by time

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#186

Post by Slansitartop »

tonylinn80 wrote: post #125
tonylinn80 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll take too much time to talk in details. Democracy in general in better than totalitarian in general, i don't disagree with that. However, establishing American democracy in China at this moment, most likely won't bring anything good or solve any problems China is facing now. And it's dangerous: If a presidential candidate say "Elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", the most likely outcome is that he'll g…

The way Chinese government is supposed to work, is actually another form of democracy: People elect representatives to become "National People's Congress", which is supposed to have highest power in China, and decides who the president is going to be. The reality is that NPC do not have real power and the voting process to elect representatives are very flawed. However, if that actually work as designed, it's not ent…

The US Federal Government, as originally envisioned, had much less direct representation, with the House of Representatives being the only directly elected body. The Senate was elected by the State governments, the President by a group of directly-elected "electors," and the Supreme Court appointed/confirmed as it is now.

The vulnerability of a democracy to a demagogue who would do things like run on a platform of "elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", has been known since the Ancient Greeks. At least in the American system, the solution has been to "separate" those powers so no one individual or small group can exercise them, forcing a consensus. You see this still working even today, with Trump, whose the most demagogue-like president in memory. He's mostly foolish talk, since most of his actions have been held in check by the courts or his inability to get legislation passed.

A tendency towards deadlock has been the major failing and problem of American democracy (at least in recent memory), as I see it. I don't really see a good democratic solution to it either, besides reversing course back towards a more decentralized republic with a weaker central government.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#187

Post by phyller »

elago wrote: post #147
mygo wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing to me that the argument of “don’t go after those guys for what they are doing when those other guys are doing bad things too” never dies. Even with all of its blatant fallacy. It will persist until the end of time. And solve nothing.

As a US citizen it is a valid argument because those "other guys" is our own country. It's not "don't go after those guys", but "take care of our own problems first". This way, when offering solutions to other oppressive countries we wouldn't look like hypocrites. Would you believe a massively obese and sickly person telling you the importance of diet and exercise?

So we shouldn't try to help people in other countries until we are literally perfect? Or are you making the argument that the US government is in fact more oppressive than the Chinese government?

The reality for the US is if it tries to take action to improve perceived injustices in the world, it is being hypocritical and "imperialist". If it does nothing, it is selfish and heartless, having the power to help but doing nothing. As far as the US goes, we are screwed either way.

Regardless, I think I can look at what is happening in China, not like it, and feel foreboding about the future. This isn't some small country somewhere. This is the most populous country in the world and I empathize with the people who live there. And frankly, China is the heir apparent to the US as the global super power. This concerns us all.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#188

Post by gigatexal »

blackrock wrote: post #87
gigatexal wrote: post #17

I hope that in my lifetime we see a revolution in China that overthrows the current authoritarian state and things like the great firewall and quasi-private/state run agencies go the way of the dodo bird. Unfortunately I don't see big American companies doing anything but continuing to court China and their growing class of wealthy consumers.

Are you saying that you want to see 100 million dead Chinese people? Because that is what you are implying. You will not have a revolution without spilling blood.

Freedom isn't free. Unless there's a coup and it's non-violent but remember this is one American's opinion. If the Chinese don't want this then it won't happen. But give people some freedom and they'll want to be free. Just look at the student protests in Hong Kong. Once people learn that things don't have to be run via the current way they might rise up. Or they might not, and that's ok too, since the price could be death.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#189

Post by AnimalMuppet »

liberte82 wrote: post #123
ericd wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you have a great king, it's among the best forms of government. The problem is that that great king's successor is probably not also great, and under a bad ruler, it's among the worst forms of government, and that bad king can last for your entire lifetime. It's never spectacularly efficient, but the US' form of democracy is meant to be much lower variance. I think it's a good tradeoff.

> When you have a great king, it's among the best forms of government. citation needed

Singapore, as kevin_thibedeaux said.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#190

Post by balthasar »

lovich wrote: post #185
balthasar wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the link between Chavez's policies and Venezuela's current economic condition?

What's the link between yesterday and today? Chavez was the previous ruler and hasn't been gone so long that the systems he set up have been washed away by time

The self exploding system just add water. Really neat innovator this Chavez guy!
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