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How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

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Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#101

Post by adamrezich »

seren wrote: post #68
stdbrouw wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, democratic countries regularly amend their constitution because parts of it have become archaic, obsolete or insane. We have yet to descend into chaos or tyranny.

As a fellow European, I am also regularly surprised by the absolute reverence to the US Constitution. Sure, it is a fundamental law and it cannot be changed lightly, but like any other piece of legislation it seems normal to update it regularly. Edit : after looking at the actual list of amendments, at least one was repelled after being introduced (regarding the Prohibition) so it seems they are not as immutable as I…

The whole amendment process is designed exactly for this reason. The problem is, nobody seems to want to actually propose a 2nd Amendment repeal and begin the legal process and see if it actually works (because it won't). So instead, everyone gets to whine about gun rights on social media instead of actually working towards accomplishing the goals they claim to be in favor of.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#102

Post by jakeogh »

seren wrote: post #96
skookumchuck wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your rights are under constant attack as well, and you've definitely got fewer ones than in the US.

You mean like the GDPR ?

The EU is going to dissolve under it's own regulatory weight. The GDPR is tactical incrementalism of "compliance" procedures. If it lasts long enough people will realize it's not about making them more free.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#103

Post by jeffgus »

kelnos wrote: post #45
arca_vorago wrote: post #25

I ctrl+f'd "natural rights" and came up with nothing, which is how I knew from the start this wasn't a very good article on the subject. Look, here is the thing that people have forgotten, or were never taught (due to a failing civics education system): People have natural rights, independent of any government, and governments are formed among the people in order to protect those rights. The government does not grant…

> People have natural rights, independent of any government, and governments are formed among the people in order to protect those rights. Not really. We've come up with that fiction because we believe -- and we're probably right -- that it gives us the best chance at living together peacefully and without interfering too much with each people's lives. But it really is a fiction. I personally believe in what you call…

> I mean, sure, if you define "right" in that way, then you can say you have the "right" to literally anything.

If? No, that is how rights are defined in the US. As long as a right doesn't violate the right of another person. This is what makes the US unique. The US government doesn't give us rights, we already have them. The constitution grants limited powers to the government. That is why it wouldn't matter of the 2nd amendment disappeared, we already have the right to self-defense. The 2nd just called out that the fact government doesn't have the power to remove that right.

If the government moves to take guns away and kills people to do it. In other words, if they try to warp the meaning of our rights, then that is the another reason to be armed.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#104

Post by gnode »

protomyth wrote: post #35
exabrial wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On their defense, people mean well, but 'the road to hell did paved with good intentions' as they say. 1st Amendment is being attacked by liberals, with pronoun laws, hate speech regulations, equal opportunity laws, forced cake baking, many other things. The 2nd is also being attacked from a variety of ways by liberals, which as said before, is well intentioned, but ultimately destructive. Thank goodness the 3rd isn'…

Thank goodness the 3rd isn't an issue! There is an old Dr Dobbs article that mentions that the 3rd might be the key to keeping the government from installing mandatory software on our computers. A stretch, but don’t forget the intent of that amendment.

I don't believe that interpretation is a stretch at all. Griswold vs. Connecticut established that the 3rd amendment infers a right to privacy from the government in one's home.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#105

Post by ben_w »

pixl97 wrote: post #70
ben_w wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is only one truth, there are many possible propagandas. If the truth cannot be known, then we don’t have democracy, we have government by highest advertising budget.

Sorry, the truth can't be known. There are likely some physics laws that can explain this better than I can, but the farther in time you get from a physical event, the more information is lost (entropy leaving your light cone). This leads to 'evidence' that allows multiple valid interpretations.

Those who say the world is flat are wrong. Those who say it’s sphical are also wrong, but less wrong. Those who say they are equally wrong are more wrong than either of them.

I want to be less wrong.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#106

Post by krapp »

icebraining wrote: post #100
krapp wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is what scares me about the current attitude (nationally) towards gun control. The current attitude stems from a desire for civility and public safety. Why would that scare you? >The right to bear arms is a basic civil right, unambiguously encoded in the Bill of Rights alongside speech, assembly, religion, due process, etc. It's not unambiguously encoded. If it were, there would not be entire debates over the m…

The current attitude stems from a desire for civility and public safety. Why would that scare you? Regardless of the specific topic, lots of terrible things have been done "with the best of intentions". It's hardly a reason not to be scared.

>lots of terrible things have been done "with the best of intentions". It's hardly a reason not to be scared.

Are you referring to gun control or the 2nd Amendment, here?

It's a reason to be scared, if you're paranoid and believe the only thing keeping your government from killing you is the fear of your gun barrel against its heads. But I don't believe such a fear is reasonable, or worthy of the weight it seems to be given in American political discourse.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#107

Post by Sukotto »

danjayh wrote: post #41
Meekro wrote: post #6

Reading the Soviet Bill of Rights is pretty instructive because it'll show you how much such a thing is worth on its own. Here is just a subset of the rights guaranteed by the USSR Constitution: speech; press; religion (both to profess and refuse to profess); assembly (including a specific right to demonstrate); participation in lawmaking; inviolability of the person (from warrantless arrest) and of the home (from un…

This is what scares me about the current attitude (nationally) towards gun control. The right to bear arms is a basic civil right, unambiguously encoded in the Bill of Rights alongside speech, assembly, religion, due process, etc. Throughout history, taking away weapons has always been an early step down the slippery slope to totalitarianism and stripping the populous of their other rights. Just because it's unlikely…

>The right to bear arms is a basic civil right, unambiguously encoded in the Bill of Rights

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

This tweet claims to describe the roots, early debate, and context of 2nd amendment's inclusion in the constitution. I found it interesting.

https://twitter.com/egavactip/status/967923256983420928

I wonder what bias author Mark Pitcavage brings to the discussion. According to twitter profile he is connected to https://www.adl.org/who-we-are which claims to be some kind of anti-semitism group. (Which I have never heard of before)

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#108

Post by dragonwriter »

Sukotto wrote: post #107
danjayh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what scares me about the current attitude (nationally) towards gun control. The right to bear arms is a basic civil right, unambiguously encoded in the Bill of Rights alongside speech, assembly, religion, due process, etc. Throughout history, taking away weapons has always been an early step down the slippery slope to totalitarianism and stripping the populous of their other rights. Just because it's unlikely…

>The right to bear arms is a basic civil right, unambiguously encoded in the Bill of Rights "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." This tweet claims to describe the roots, early debate, and context of 2nd amendment's inclusion in the constitution. I found it interesting. https://twitter.com/egavactip/status/9679…

ADL is decidedly not an anti-Semitism group, and certainly does not claim to be one.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#109

Post by Sukotto »

dragonwriter wrote: post #108
Sukotto wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The right to bear arms is a basic civil right, unambiguously encoded in the Bill of Rights "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." This tweet claims to describe the roots, early debate, and context of 2nd amendment's inclusion in the constitution. I found it interesting. https://twitter.com/egavactip/status/9679…

ADL is decidedly not an anti-Semitism group, and certainly does not claim to be one.

The only info I have to go on is their about page. The second sentence of which is "We fight anti-Semitism and all forms of hate."

Perhaps you're thinking of some other organization with the same name?

Anyway, the core point of my comment was that I liked getting some background on the drivers that led to the 2nd amendment.

Re: How We Learned to Love the Bill of Rights

#110

Post by UncleMeat »

skookumchuck wrote: post #22
exabrial wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On their defense, people mean well, but 'the road to hell did paved with good intentions' as they say. 1st Amendment is being attacked by liberals, with pronoun laws, hate speech regulations, equal opportunity laws, forced cake baking, many other things. The 2nd is also being attacked from a variety of ways by liberals, which as said before, is well intentioned, but ultimately destructive. Thank goodness the 3rd isn'…

> I like all of the amendments. I'm not an NRA member, but the idea of repealing the 2nd Amendment, or worse, interpreting it out of existence has bothered me in ways I couldn't quite put my finger on. I finally realized what it was. If we decide one of the rights is "archaic", "obsolete", "insane", or any of the epithets routinely leveled at it, we set a terrible precedent. How long will it be before the rest fall w…

Why? Did repealing the 18th set off a rash of destruction of right?
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