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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#181

Post by davrosthedalek »

Xylakant wrote: post #81
jacquesm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not, and is not in other parts of Europe. The only fuel in Europe that you could class as 'subsidized' is so called 'red' diesel that is used in agriculture. You could run that in your regular diesel engine and it will work just fine but the coloring will stain the fuel delivery system and the tank in such a way that even many runs of regular fuel later it is detectable and this will get you a very heavy fine.

Diesel is taxed significantly lower than petrol in germany which accounts for most of the substantial price difference. One could argue that this is a form ob subsidy.

Isn't the logical conclusion of this argument that gas is also subsidized because the tax could be higher? Or that toys are subsidized because they don't have the additional diesel/gas tax (which, btw, you pay VAT on...)?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#182

Post by odiroot »

jacquesm wrote: post #143
ams6110 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing like the cars from the '70s or earlier. Every once in a while driving, I'll pass a restored car from the 60s or 70s going the other way, and can smell the exhaust for about a mile. And that's one car.

Nothing like a two-stroke moped. Those are the worst by far.

Yep. That was the reason I chose a four-stroke myself. Also easier maintenance and less problems starting in bad weather.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#183

Post by CalRobert »

TomMarius wrote: post #87
CalRobert wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, actually. All of those things can be transported by cargo bike. There is a place for automobiles, and vans, in cities (ambulances come to mind) - just like there is a place for helicopters, but what we have now is a gross distortion that came as a result of more or less legalizing killing people with your car (as long as it was an accident) and giving people ample free asphalt and parking.

What do you mean, free asphalt and parking? I'm paying huge taxes and this stuff is built from taxes. Edit: To the people downvoting: We're talking about Europe. The US apparently works differently, but that's not how it's in the EU.

Speak for yourself. I'm referring to both, having spent most of my life in California and half a decade in Europe (ish - Ireland is peripheral in more than one sense).

There are some differences wrt property taxes, etc. but for the most part, roads are an all you can drive buffet, if you're in a car that is, so of course people use them without regard to cost. My taxes pay for roads but I only get a sliver of them as a bike lane on some of the thoroughfares in the city. Even the motorway tolls are laughably low; a few Euro at most barring one tunnel.

As always you can find exceptions. French motorways begin to cost enough to matter. Demand-priced parking and Express lanes in California have brought something resembling sanity to space allocation where it was obviously desperately needed. But for the most part my point stands.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#184

Post by lultimouomo »

Torwald wrote: post #179
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

> ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons What about death? I mean, wouldn't this take too long to reach people and to bring them into hospital if needed? (We already have cases were people die on the way to the hospital as things stand.)

I think he meant the loudness of the ambulance siren.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#185

Post by odiroot »

thesimon wrote: post #17
Arnt wrote: post #11

The backstory here: EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high. German law prohibits various kinds of discrimination. For example, a simple ban on half the cars on Monday and the other on Tuesday would bother large plumber companies much less than independent plumbers who need a carful of tools and have only one car. What actions are the cities permitted to take, and/or required.

>EU law mandates doing something to reduce pollution if it's too high And it mandates that for around 15 years now. One of the cities (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits for at least 8 years now. It's quite strange that it took so long to finally force the city to do something effective.

> (Stuttgart) has been exceeding the pollution limits

Funnily enough multiple car factories are based here.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#186

Post by CalRobert »

inetknght wrote: post #134
CalRobert wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean free at point of delivery. People using them don't necessarily pay for them (if I drive from SF to San Diego, I pay nothing to LA for the use of their roads, which doesn't really seem fair, though admittedly most of that drive would be on Interstate) I'd have no problem with tolled roads. Funny enough I would _love_ tolled bike paths - I'd pay several grand a year for them willingly - if I could even get them.…

I disagree with the concept of toll roads, at least insomuch as they're effectively double-taxing us: we pay taxes for roads already. Now you want me to pay again to use the road? But really, if roads were not free in the first place, toll roads would basically stop being a thing and the roads themselves would become the toll.

I think most roads should be paid for by tolls and taxes reduced accordingly. This is because roads tend to have a huge number of negative externalities.

In some cases the very act of having to pay increases the utility of the road to the user - see congestion charging. This ensures people who gain the most economic benefit from using the road are the ones using this precious resource.

Of course, your point could be applied to any government-provided service where there is a fee. The tram receives public funding but I still have to buy a ticket, after all.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#187

Post by kozak »

gwbas1c wrote: post #89
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

One thing I've quickly realized from driving an electric car: gas (petrol) cars smell really, really bad. We're just so used to it we don't notice.

My car (gasoline Euro-5) smells only when the engine is cold. Once it warms up, I can't smell anything. I guess it probably means that the catalytic converter is working as expected (it needs to be hot enough to work properly).

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#188

Post by saiya-jin »

kbart wrote: post #138
tjansen wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please no bicylces, they are terrible for pedestrians. I'd rather deal with cars than bikes.

In most cities with good bike infrastructure I've seen you cannot ride a bike among pedestrians, they are limited to roads and bike lanes[0]. Whenever I see bicycle on a sidewalk is most often because road is jammed with cars or it's too dangerous for bikes, if we get rid of (most) cars, this will not be a problem as there will be plenty of space for everyone. 0. http://www.cambridgema.gov/~/media/Images/CDD/Transpor…

> Whenever I see bicycle on a sidewalk is most often because road is jammed with cars or it's too dangerous for bikes

Apart from the very common use case where I live (Switzerland mind you) where cyclists just don't give a fuck about anybody out there, and use any means to go ahead including crossing red light, passing through crowd of pedestrian at high speed, jumping to sidewalk at full speed just to cross with pedestrians' green light etc.

Seeing this every single day, usually multiple times. Roads are not really crowded. Just that some people are selfish arrogant assholes, and cycling to work seems to be one of activities that reveal it.

As a pedestrian, I hate bikers (and I do XC cycling quite a bit). By far the most arrogant&aggressive participants of public traffic in the cities.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#189

Post by CalRobert »

IshKebab wrote: post #141
CalRobert wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, actually. All of those things can be transported by cargo bike. There is a place for automobiles, and vans, in cities (ambulances come to mind) - just like there is a place for helicopters, but what we have now is a gross distortion that came as a result of more or less legalizing killing people with your car (as long as it was an accident) and giving people ample free asphalt and parking.

A sofa can't be transported by bike. Especially not up hills, don't be an idiot. A better solution would be to restrict traffic to commercial vehicles and only at certain times.

It will please you to know that gears are fitted as standard on many bicycles.

Further reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_advantage

Honestly trying to convince people that a full life can be lived with a bicycle feels a lot like the problem of the cave.

There's a whole world outside the parking lots, but too many people have never even seen it; just pictures of it on travel blogs about Amsterdam, and don't really think it's real.

Edit:

In addition to gears, batteries and motors are a thing.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#190

Post by jacquesm »

rmetzler wrote: post #178
jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

As far as I know, no German city has ban any cars yet at a larger scale. Some have done so for their inner city. This court ruling just allows German cities to ban diesel cars, so whatever a city decides to do, is possible as long as it isn't challenged by the public or there is a new law. I go by bike to work every single day. It's 8.5 km one way, today morning was -9C outside and while my beard was full of ice, I b…

Sorry to see you downvoted.

I'm totally sympathetic to the end goal, I would just like to see a realistic approach and the GGP's call for an outright ban on vehicles in the present is not supportable.

The biggest problem I have with various 'green' parties is that for the most part their solutions are bordering on the militant and do not take in to account the various complications that will need to be dealt with in order to implement the final vision.

I cycle a lot, wear out a couple of bike tires in a year. I also drive a lot, live in a small town outside of Amsterdam. So I think I see the world from both sides and a life-long interest in green technology (windmills, solar) as well as electric vehicles has given me a pretty good ground level of knowledge about all this stuff.

There is one part of me that would very much like to see this car-free city of the future come to pass in my lifetime, I'd probably move there in a heartbeat if it were done properly. But if it were done improperly I highly doubt it would fly and it would likely end up being undone and that would cause a setback we can not afford.

So better to think really hard about how to make this work, prepare plans that are properly wrought through in such a way that they work for everybody and in ways that do not accidentally kill the thing they are aiming for.

Keep in mind that cars were not thrown into cities without reason, and that at the time they were invented the bicycles were already there as well. The car mostly displaced the horse because it was cleaner.

The time when things went wrong is roughly the 1960's (for Europe at least) when suddenly a car was within reach of everybody that wanted one and the cities were ill prepared to deal with that. By the 1970's the disaster was already complete and traffic became a mess. It's been downhill from there so we definitely will need to make changes.

In my experience to date it takes roughly as long to get out of a problematic situation as it takes to get into it. Any major changes on time-scales of less than a few years will lead to trouble, a realistic transition plan would probably run for a decade or more.

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