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Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

reuters.com

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Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#91

Post by jacquesm »

Xylakant wrote: post #81
jacquesm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not, and is not in other parts of Europe. The only fuel in Europe that you could class as 'subsidized' is so called 'red' diesel that is used in agriculture. You could run that in your regular diesel engine and it will work just fine but the coloring will stain the fuel delivery system and the tank in such a way that even many runs of regular fuel later it is detectable and this will get you a very heavy fine.

Diesel is taxed significantly lower than petrol in germany which accounts for most of the substantial price difference. One could argue that this is a form ob subsidy.

Absence of tax is not a subsidy. A subsidy is when something is cheaper than it should be because the government picks up some of the costs.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#92

Post by agmcleod »

CalRobert wrote: post #90
TomMarius wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'd also practically stop economic growth of areas outside large cities and slow down economic growth of the city itself. Many businesses would be ruined (and thus people working on them). Many people would loose their jobs. This is a very backwards approach. Why don't we destroy our cities that have replaced the beautiful nature that used to be there instead of them?

For what it's worth, I'm trying to find a place that is free of cars because, well, they ruin life if you enjoy walking and cycling. So far, places that come to mind are central Ghent and Rothenburg ob der Tauber (sadly the latter allows cars but they're still very few in number). If I were there I would expect to work remote, or start my own gig. I'd shop locally. There are very few places in the world where you can…

In many cases I see cycling ruin life if you enjoy driving or walking ;). I do find places that i've seen be bike friendly in Europe do a much better job at this. But cyclists in Toronto can be pretty awful. Likewise can pedestrians and cars. Whichever way I travel, the other two are annoying me or causing me grief somehow.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#93

Post by bergie »

madez wrote: post #75
neverminder wrote: post #68

Eastern Europe will be flooded with those cars now. http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-dirty-diesel-cars-en-route-for...

The EU comission threatened to fine Germany for the air pollution caused by these cars. I expect they'd treat other EU countries the same.

Already happening:

> The EU’s top court ruled that Poland has persistently breached European standards on air pollution, which causes nearly 50,000 deaths in the country each year.

https://www.ft.com/content/b1d8794a-17d8-11e8-9e9c-25c814761...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#94

Post by lilbobbytables »

gwbas1c wrote: post #89
TheLostOne wrote: post #45

As a German who never owned a car (have driver license 30+ years) and never will, hurray! Next: Petrol cars please. Costs for cities would decrease a lot [1], room for bicycles would increase, noise would drop to a level which can't believed, ambulances would be adjusted to walking persons instead of loud cars with their stereos on and air would be wonderful. [1] https://www.amazon.de/High-Cost-Free-Parking/dp/193236…

One thing I've quickly realized from driving an electric car: gas (petrol) cars smell really, really bad. We're just so used to it we don't notice.

s/bad/good/g

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#95

Post by adrianN »

TomMarius wrote: post #87
CalRobert wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, actually. All of those things can be transported by cargo bike. There is a place for automobiles, and vans, in cities (ambulances come to mind) - just like there is a place for helicopters, but what we have now is a gross distortion that came as a result of more or less legalizing killing people with your car (as long as it was an accident) and giving people ample free asphalt and parking.

What do you mean, free asphalt and parking? I'm paying huge taxes and this stuff is built from taxes. Edit: To the people downvoting: We're talking about Europe. The US apparently works differently, but that's not how it's in the EU.

You don't pay enough taxes to cover the cost of land in a big city. See for example this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/15/business/economy/15view.ht...

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#96

Post by igravious »

TheLostOne wrote: post #78
jacquesm wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the German economy would crash, but never mind that. Before you ban all petrol cars you will first need something that can replace them because not everybody is in a position to use public transport both due to capacity, speed and door-to-door elements.

Economy will crash in the next 5 years either way with mass replacement of people by AI (call centers, taxi drivers, truck drivers, ...). Edit: Plus German car industry will crash either way because most people work not in building cars, but motors, electronics, transmission etc. which are mostly redundant with electric cars.

I'll take either bet. €1000 says the German economy will not crash in the next 5 years due to the mass replacement of people by AI. Another €1000 says that the transition to electric vehicles will not crash the German vehicle industry. (I've changed your wording from cars to vehicles because I do not see the point of the needless restriction.) Let's say as well if the same person wins both bets they get a bonus €1000.

Sound reasonable and good to you? I mean you do believe in what you're saying, yes?

What's your email address so that I can mail you the contract?

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#98

Post by Svip »

olex wrote: post #32
yostrovs wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps my view of German energy industry is not detailed, but what are the advantages of diesel engines in cars if not efficiency? Cold starts can be hard, they smell, make a funny sound, slow to accelerate. Maybe maintenance is easier when there are no spark plugs.

> slow to accelerate Have you driven a modern diesel? At lower speeds, they easily beat similar-displacement petrol cars off the line with superior torque. They are weaker at high speeds, but in normal (especially city) driving, a diesel is usually faster than a petrol. But yeah, their main factor for popularity is the cost per km. They use less fuel than petrol engines, and the fuel is less expensive (in Germany). T…

Diesel isn't that cost efficient actually, even if you drive a lot. Diesel are more expensive to maintain due to regulations, plus diesel cars tend to be more expensive their petrol counterparts. Moreover, there is depreciation, which tend to be worse for diesel cars, because they are valued less on the second hand market (fairly or unfairly).

On average, you should expect to drive at least 150.000+ km before you've broken even on a diesel car with its petrol counterpart.

People only look at fuel consumption and fuel prices, but maintenance and depreciation are actually one's biggest loss on a car purchase. And in general petrol comes out on top.

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#99

Post by walshemj »

adrianN wrote: post #74
TomMarius wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, of course. People from outside the city come to the city by car to buy goods and offer their services because mass transit is not available or not practical. It's impossible to make mass transit practical for everyone.

It is practical to offer parking at train stations at the outskirts of the city so that people can commute to the train station and leave their car outside the exclusion zones.

That only works for large cities that can afford high density tram, underground and bus systems

Re: Diesel cars can be banned from German cities, court rules

#100

Post by majewsky »

TomMarius wrote: post #87
CalRobert wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, actually. All of those things can be transported by cargo bike. There is a place for automobiles, and vans, in cities (ambulances come to mind) - just like there is a place for helicopters, but what we have now is a gross distortion that came as a result of more or less legalizing killing people with your car (as long as it was an accident) and giving people ample free asphalt and parking.

What do you mean, free asphalt and parking? I'm paying huge taxes and this stuff is built from taxes. Edit: To the people downvoting: We're talking about Europe. The US apparently works differently, but that's not how it's in the EU.

Grandparent probably doesn't mean "free", but "sunk cost".
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