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Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

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Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#71
post #5

So the topography here is: Individual router satellite mesh net SpaceX router connected to the internet. Is there any reason why the protocol between satellites matters? They clearly aren't aiming for interoperability with other companies.

the protocol and modulation/coding scheme between satellites (for in-space RF links) matters a great deal, because coding efficiency can vary... If would have a great deal of protocol overhead and wasted bps if they were to optimized it to actually speak Ethernet between satellites (eg: to pass standard 1600B or 9000B frames) versus something that has been designed from the ground up for a very specific amount of latency, and designed for a satellite-to-satellite trunk link. However they're breaking up the data also has to deal with the possible earth station architecture. I have not personally seen the design of a Starlink satelilte, but the concept is basically similar to a very small version of o3b.

Each satellite will have basically three different RF setups on it:

1) L or S-band TT&C (tracking, telemetry and control). This is the admin and OOB management for the satellite and some of the frequencies can be seen in SpaceX's recent FCC filing, with earth stations in the Seattle and Los Angeles area.

2) Multiple Ka/V-band or other multiple spot beam antennas aimed straight down, serving CPEs.

3) There will be at least two dedicated high capacity dish antennas per satellite aimed at large, high capacity fixed earth stations (2.4 to 5 meter size) operating in the Ka-band or higher. The earth stations will need to be geographically distributed around the globe at various fiber IX points, similar to how o3b has done things now, so that the satellite-to-satellite trunk links can take the fewest possible number of hops before downlinking to the terrestrial internet. The more medium sized earth stations the better, because it increases the chance that a link to an individual CPE can take a bent-pipe path rather than traveling through multiple satellite-to-satellite hops. For example a CPE in far rural Wyoming, and a satellite passing over the general area of Wyoming, might be able to "see" a 3.0m sized high capacity earth station located near fiber in Cheyenne. Data from CPE, up to satellite, down to Cheyenne, one hop.

Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He specifically mentions a much lower protocol overhead, implying a translation of some sort, as opposed to just encapsulation. As an ex-programmer, is unlikely Musk would make that confusion.

Are you ever an ex-programmer? I would say, once a programmer, always a programmer.

I refer to myself as a recovering software engineer/programmer. Never really out of the addiction, but not in the weeds anymore.

Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#75

what are the ping times for satellite networks?

Depends on the network. The current satellite internet systems all use satellites parked in a geosynchronous orbit. This means that ping times are measured in the hundreds of milliseconds in most cases.

The satellite network that Musk is talking about uses a very large web of satellites in low Earth orbit, which would mean ping times of less than 100 milliseconds.

Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#76

The headline is completely misleading. The transport layer won't use IPv6. It's like saying ethernet doesn't use IPv6. That's unsurprising.

He specifically mentions a much lower protocol overhead, implying a translation of some sort, as opposed to just encapsulation. As an ex-programmer, is unlikely Musk would make that confusion.

It's most likely a version of the ATM protocol[1]. Point-to-point, small packets, etc.. We used a version of that when I was working on the Iridium project.

Likely the exact same thing here, especially if they hired the same engineers.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_Transfer_Mode

Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#77
post #51

Is this a case of doubling down, whilst SpaceX waits for the demand to launch satellites at the lower price grows. Its one thing to be able to launch satellites far more cheaply than other companies, perhaps the economics demands certain number of launches a year to keep capacity up and price down? The question is what happens when they launch all 1000 satellites?

> The question is what happens when they launch all 1000 satellites? The plan is for 12,000 satellites and they are only designed to last a few years and then be replaced. This keeps launch rates constant, allows them to make much larger use of economies of scale by having that many satellites, and to constantly improve speed by building the new satellites with state of the art technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

That's a lot of satellites. What are they going to do with the deprecated ones?

Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He specifically mentions a much lower protocol overhead, implying a translation of some sort, as opposed to just encapsulation. As an ex-programmer, is unlikely Musk would make that confusion.

It's most likely a version of the ATM protocol[1]. Point-to-point, small packets, etc.. We used a version of that when I was working on the Iridium project. Likely the exact same thing here, especially if they hired the same engineers. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asynchronous_Transfer_Mode

You worked on the original Iridium satellite architecture? I am sure a lot of people here may not know how fully groundbreaking it was. Considering it is now 20-year-old tech the satellite-to-satellite Ka-band trunk links are an amazing technical achievement. That and the voice codec they came up with to make humans intelligible at 2400bps.

Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#79
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The question is what happens when they launch all 1000 satellites? The plan is for 12,000 satellites and they are only designed to last a few years and then be replaced. This keeps launch rates constant, allows them to make much larger use of economies of scale by having that many satellites, and to constantly improve speed by building the new satellites with state of the art technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wi…

That's a lot of satellites. What are they going to do with the deprecated ones?

Probably plan to make fireworks out of them. Without periodic boosts, LEO satellites fall anyway, but I believe all new satellites are launched with reserve fuel for a controlled reentry burn over uninhabited ocean.

Re: Elon Musk said SpaceX's multi 1000 satellite Internet service will be IP-less

#80
post #73

Is there an estimate on the magnitude of the maximum total bandwidth achievable with a LEO satellite, both for a smartphone client and for a fixed home antenna? How far would it be to 4G and gigabit fiber respectively?

It's not the bandwidth I'm curious about, I'm wondering what the latency will be like. Satellite connections usually have bad latency because of obvious physics laws limitation. This can be bad for real time apps. Still great for most web applications though.
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