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Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

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Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#91

Post by AnthonyMouse »

nradov wrote: post #11
jseliger wrote: post #2

Solution: Toll roads.

Ideally it should be dynamic congestion pricing so that the cost of driving on a particular road at any time is based on how busy the road is. Right now major roads are a classic "tragedy of the commons" situation.

> Ideally it should be dynamic congestion pricing so that the cost of driving on a particular road at any time is based on how busy the road is.

Congestion pricing is like trying to put out an oil fire by pouring water on it. And then charging the poor 15% of their paycheck for the water.

The primary reason there is congestion is that where people live and where people work are too far apart, i.e. there isn't enough housing near the jobs. Solve that and there is no congestion. Don't solve it and every other solution will be a new problem.

You can't get people to take a bus to a place the bus doesn't go, and you can't build mass transit from everywhere to everywhere across a thousand square miles of sprawl.

You can build multi-story housing near multi-story offices, and build both next to subway stations.

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#92

Post by yodon »

tmnvix wrote: post #80
mrep wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people will walk, bike or take the train rather than drive. All three are preferable to being stuck in traffic. Maybe for you but my girlfriend could write a book about all of the harassment she has received from random strangers in Seattle. She has even been assaulted which is why we are now car shopping after trying to go without one for 2 years and that is just so she can feel safe traveling. She would easily dr…

I understand that this might seem rational from an individual's perspective but to exclude your family from society in this way is a tragedy and does not seem like any kind of solution to me.

Moving out to the suburbs when you have kids is a tragedy? That’s some serious first world definition of tragedy.

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#93

Post by mrep »

tmnvix wrote: post #80
mrep wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people will walk, bike or take the train rather than drive. All three are preferable to being stuck in traffic. Maybe for you but my girlfriend could write a book about all of the harassment she has received from random strangers in Seattle. She has even been assaulted which is why we are now car shopping after trying to go without one for 2 years and that is just so she can feel safe traveling. She would easily dr…

I understand that this might seem rational from an individual's perspective but to exclude your family from society in this way is a tragedy and does not seem like any kind of solution to me.

I agree that it is a tragedy and it is also a tragedy how much resources we devote towards computer/software security.

There are tons of similar best practice inefficient solutions to society's problems in order to deal with the malicious actors because nobody has solved this problem and I doubt anyone ever will.

Do you have an idea for how to stop people from acting maliciously? Considering how subjective that question is, I cannot think of one (for a democracy at least).

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#94

Post by btrettel »

ars wrote: post #64
tachyoff wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no institutional inertia or political organizing involved in walking, riding your bike, or taking the bus for your next trip. Assuming you live in a bikeable or walkable area, sure. Bus service exists, but it can be patchy and/or underfunded. Some people simply have none of these options. I live in Detroit (yes, Motor City), and this area is crying out for good mass transit. In fact, two out of four necess…

Compared to having your own car, even the absolutely best, world class, mass transit service is just terrible. And I say this having tried both. It just doesn't compare. This is not a battle you are going to win. I'm happy for other people to take mass transit and leave more road space for me. Or I can be more fair and want more road space for everyone. Mass transit is not a good solution, it's a poor solution, that…

> I'm happy for other people to take mass transit and leave more road space for me.

I appreciate your honesty. Made me think of this:

https://www.theonion.com/report-98-percent-of-u-s-commuters-...

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#95

Post by csydas »

hasbroslasher wrote: post #29

I'd like to propose the following: public-private ride share. In short, US Federal Gov't buys or finances the development of ride-sharing software and licenses it to cities. Cities act as Uber does now, skimming a (much smaller) percentage of their revenue as a tax, adjusting the variables in favor of local interests (e.g. incentivizing carpooling or service in lower-income areas), and studying the ways that ride sha…

After having lived in Russia for a bit, I'm mildly surprised that a US equivalent of Marshrutki [1] haven't really popped up in US cities. While St. Petersburg and Moscow have really well built out public transit systems, the urban sprawl and construction of the cities just doesn't allow for access by anything but non-bus-sized vehicles. The tl;dr of the wiki link below is imagine a passenger van that runs a fixed route - you can board or exit anywhere along the route by signaling the driver, and while slightly more expensive than public transit, you get the benefit of flexibility.

Here in SPB the marshrutki usually run parallel to major routes for a bit then deviate to hit residential areas or give fast-access to shopping centers, and combined with public transport you have just about everything you need to get around fast and conveniently. I suppose that such a system would suffer from the same issue of "everyone already has a car" that public transit in the US does, but it's a nice trade off.

(An aside, it's also a thrill ride each time, but when you need to get 10 km in a few minutes and have no care for your well-being, it's the best way to travel)

[1] = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshrutka

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#96

Post by candiodari »

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #82
mrep wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people will walk, bike or take the train rather than drive. All three are preferable to being stuck in traffic. Maybe for you but my girlfriend could write a book about all of the harassment she has received from random strangers in Seattle. She has even been assaulted which is why we are now car shopping after trying to go without one for 2 years and that is just so she can feel safe traveling. She would easily dr…

I’m sorry for your girlfriend’s experience. If it makes you feel any better, it cuts both ways. For example, I was in an Uber Pool yesterday in SF. My driver picks up the next passengers (two women), and they refuse to get in after asking what my name is. (Who even asks that?!) They cancel, and we pick up another passenger who’s also female. Keep in mind that my driver and I are both of Indian descent. She instantane…

> why would you assume that two brown guys are going to rape you? Not to trivialize what happens to women, but it’s certainly an odd reaction to have.

Because of the extreme cost of a false negative, ...

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#97

Post by candiodari »

yodon wrote: post #92
tmnvix wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that this might seem rational from an individual's perspective but to exclude your family from society in this way is a tragedy and does not seem like any kind of solution to me.

Moving out to the suburbs when you have kids is a tragedy? That’s some serious first world definition of tragedy.

I think they mean that blocking problems that would prevent the implementation of their favorite policy are the tragedies.

Public transport does not work, and this is just one more reason why. Every few years the police feels the need to spend a month or two catching pickpockets (or worse) on public transport. Train stations in all the big cities are hotbeds of criminal activity. That is a major problem that is not, and probably won't ever be, solved.

For me personally public transport fails in 3 massive ways:

1) public transport means I cannot do groceries, shopping for furniture, tvs or other big goods, move houses, ... so I still need a car, public transport or not.

2) governments just don't build out public transport. Even in places with "excellent" public transport, when I pass there (the Netherlands, for example), there are severe capacity problems that COULD have been solved, but aren't.

In many places like London or New York, there aren't capacity problems, you're actually unlikely to NOT be delayed at some point.

3) it's not actually cheaper once you take into account that you have to bring 2 kids to school, then go to work. Taking the cost/inconvenience/risk of public transport doesn't even provide a monetary or time reward.

This also means that using public transport for family trips is out : driving across Europe (e.g. Netherlands -> South of France) for a weekend or holiday ... train is a LOT more expensive than using a car.

(That said, it can provide a big time advantage and I will use it in that case, but I still much prefer a car)

Some reading on the subject:

http://www.uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/MassTransit.HTM

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2013/03/06/top-eigh...

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#98

Post by DrScump »

ShabbosGoy wrote: post #82
mrep wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people will walk, bike or take the train rather than drive. All three are preferable to being stuck in traffic. Maybe for you but my girlfriend could write a book about all of the harassment she has received from random strangers in Seattle. She has even been assaulted which is why we are now car shopping after trying to go without one for 2 years and that is just so she can feel safe traveling. She would easily dr…

I’m sorry for your girlfriend’s experience. If it makes you feel any better, it cuts both ways. For example, I was in an Uber Pool yesterday in SF. My driver picks up the next passengers (two women), and they refuse to get in after asking what my name is. (Who even asks that?!) They cancel, and we pick up another passenger who’s also female. Keep in mind that my driver and I are both of Indian descent. She instantane…

  while throwing herself on me
I see how someone who would write that could elicit discomfort in strangers.

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#99

Post by DrScump »

mrep wrote: post #38
beguiledfoil wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Seattle is seeing per capita transit ridership drops, odd considering expansion of rail lines. In an urban environment the car is what turns transportation into a game of the prisoner's dilemma. From this point of view ride shares are just the latest way that America has managed to extend the game. My desire is that we develop ways to make cities hospitable to carless families. That goal seems more remote now th…

Light rail usage has grown by leaps and bounds [0]. The reason you are seeing a per capita transit ridership decline is because Seattle is the fastest growing city in the country [1] so it's understandable why public transit rates are declining despite the huge investments. [0]: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/sou... [1]: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/seattle-once-...

  because Seattle is the fastest growing city in the country ... it's understandable why public transit rates are declining
I don't see how the latter logically resuls from the former. It seems counterintuitive.

Re: Studies are increasingly clear: Uber, Lyft congest cities

#100

Post by DrScump »

lsc wrote: post #46
beguiledfoil wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Seattle is seeing per capita transit ridership drops, odd considering expansion of rail lines. In an urban environment the car is what turns transportation into a game of the prisoner's dilemma. From this point of view ride shares are just the latest way that America has managed to extend the game. My desire is that we develop ways to make cities hospitable to carless families. That goal seems more remote now th…

>My desire is that we develop ways to make cities hospitable to carless families. That goal seems more remote now than it did in 2010. Eh, from where I stand (in silicon valley) being carless is way more practical now than in 2010; I mean, I don't have a child, so I'm not a carless family, but I've gotten rid of my car and more than half of my 'ride sharing' trips are in the actual 'ride sharing' mode where they can…

Own car: To work, to grocery store, to home = 3 trips.

Your method: trip to pick you up, trip to drop you at work, trip to pick you up at work, trip to take you home, trip for grocery picker to store, trip for groceries to your home... there's six trips. The traffic burden you create is increased, not lessened.

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