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Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

technologyreview.com

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Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#51

I’ve spent a long time thinking about this, and I actually think that most of the dangers are somewhat overblown and the corrective actions are already in progress. People are already willing to pay a premium for artisanal goods specifically because they are made by a human being, and this provides a growing economic niche for artisans. In and of itself, this isn’t exactly sufficient, since artisans don’t usually mak…

"A quarter of all working visual artists earn no money from their art, and another quarter earn less than $1,000 a year. Almost 90% earn less than $5,000 a year. Similarly disturbing figures can be quoted for poets, short-story writers, playwrights, novelists, independent filmmakers, pop singers, potters, jazz musicians, rock musicians, classical composers, art photographers -- for all groups of creative and performing artists."

"According to a Rockefeller Panel report commissioned to take an in-depth look at the financial realities of the performer's life:

"The miserable income of the majority of performing artists reflects both a shortage of jobs and the brief duration of employment that is available. In all except the small handful of our major and metropolitan orchestras, musicians earn an average of only a few hundred dollars a year from their professional labors. During an average week in the winter season, only about one-fifth of the active members of Actors' Equity Association, the theatrical performers union, are employed in the profession. Of the actors who do find jobs, well over half are employed for only ten weeks -- less than one-fifth of the year. For most opera compnies the season lasts only a few weeks. The livelihood of the dancer is perhaps the most meager of all."[1]

Now, that's today, with relatively few artists. Imagine a future where there's a flood of artists from all the people who lost their jobs to AI (assuming they all have some desire, ability, and dedication to actually try to make a living as an artist.. very unlikely, but such is supposedly the main hope for a future for these people). Now the wages of artists will be even further depressed as there will be a glut of supply (much like the glut of "photographers" now that everyone has a camera in their cell phone).

Then it has to be asked: who will be buying all of these artisonal products and services from the newly unemployed masses? There's only so much art the relatively well-off are going to want to buy, only so many plays they'll pay to see, and so on. Demand would have to rise tremendously to absorb all the additional supply if the already meager wages that artists earn aren't going to fall to virtually zero. Where is all that extra demand going to come from? The US is already not a place where art is particularly valued. There's no indication that that's going to improve with the advent of job-replacing AI.

[1] - From "Staying Sane in the Arts" by Eric Maisel

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage is orthogonal to many jobs that AI will replace, especially in medicine. If it's your job to diagnose illness from medical imagery, you probably make a good deal more than minimum wage but your job is very much in jeopardy. Truck drivers make three times minimum wage in many cases, and their jobs are going to disappear in only a few years. At past jobs, I've seen finance folks (with graduate degrees) hav…

The parent is referring to the how people cannot lower their wage (below the minimum) when automation starts competing against them. The truck driver may make three times minimum wage right now, but the truck driver will be prevented, by law, from offering to drive a truck for 1/3 minimum wage when driverless trucks cost 1/2 minimum wage to operate. Humans may want to sharpen their pencils and outcompete automation o…

Do you really think that people can survive earning 1/3 of the minimum wage? They will be much better off just becoming beggars.

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people said that about the minimum wage in the UK before it was introduced, it turned out to be far from the truth.

But you're looking at this from the point of view of the environment where automation has always created far more work than what was replaced. In fact, up to this point, automation has created so much work that we even reached a point where the male half of the population could not handle doing it all and we had to start integrating women, who historically were not involved, into the workplace. Minimum wage is workin…

No, it makes much more financial sense to not work and earn 0 while getting income with begging or criminal actions than work 10h/day for 1/3 of minimum wage that is for sure not enough to survive.

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#54
post #32

Another article claiming that there is a coming AI jobpocalypse based on the fact that "this time it is different". Every author focuses on the negative impacts of a new technology instead of what it will enable us to do. In order to believe the doomsayers, you have to ignore the entire history of the industrialized world. I do not find their arguments very convincing.

But this time it will be different. We're not talking about a shift from one class of employment to another, we're talking about a shift from employment to unemployment for a very large chunk of the population and we don't have the foggiest idea of where we will find the money to pay for that and we haven't got a clue on how we will keep these people from feeling worthless and depressed. It's an illusion to think tha…

You are making the same mistake as the author. People are endlessly creative and will find productive uses for their labor. I'm not ignoring the fact that people won't face disruption in the labor market, however it is very naive to assume that all of the work that will ever need to be done can be done by AI. People will not be pensioned off at 23 they will just be doing jobs that were not possible before, just like they did with every other major invention of the past 250 years.

"everything that can be invented has been invented." - Charles H Duell 1899.

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#55

Mechanization 'destroyed' millions of jobs, when people were replaced by mechanized equipment replaced farm workers, horse breeders/tenders, folks in the transportation business, etc. Electronic computers 'destroyed' jobs when they replaced human computers. Motorized street sweepers 'destroyed' jobs when they replaced people with brooms sweeping debris off of streets (except in Beijing where, as of 2015, this is stil…

"People will find a way to stay busy."

Ugh?

Yes--finding a place to sleep without breaking any laws will keep them on their toes.

Non-profits will keep them from starving to death--maybe?

They will become adept at sign making?

And, they will say they hate it, but are secretly relieved when they end up in jail.

Hay--this is now?

The wealthy will always be fine. They are always fine. They have the world to sell their stuff. They have the money to buy political influence.

The cameras will record any act of malfeasance. The wealthy communities will have surveillance (Tiburon Ca.), aggressive police tactics. All designed to keep them away from the zombies. They won't have to look at the eye sores. God I hate that phrase. It's always cones out of the ugliest peoples mouths?

We will get used to seeing people dying on the streets. We will get used to the smell of sewage on the sidewalks. We will get used to looking the other way.

Hay--this is happening today.

California has one patch of land that people can go to die/live for nothing. They can pitch a tent. Drink the water they brought. Eat the food they brought. It's in the desert of California, ownded by a Teacher's Union? It's a piece of land the wealthy would let their dogs poop on. It's hell. Federal land? No--the rangers will monitor you like a melanoma. There's just nowhere to go when you don't fit in.

Yes--people will busy. Busy just barely surviving.

So many of us are just barely surviving, but taught to not complain. This is America? It's the land of opportunity? A country that helps those need with well funded Safety Nets. A country that made too many laws--laws that stomp on the poor, and unemployed.

Ugh. Some days?

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Minimum wage is orthogonal to many jobs that AI will replace, especially in medicine. If it's your job to diagnose illness from medical imagery, you probably make a good deal more than minimum wage but your job is very much in jeopardy. Truck drivers make three times minimum wage in many cases, and their jobs are going to disappear in only a few years. At past jobs, I've seen finance folks (with graduate degrees) hav…

The parent is referring to the how people cannot lower their wage (below the minimum) when automation starts competing against them. The truck driver may make three times minimum wage right now, but the truck driver will be prevented, by law, from offering to drive a truck for 1/3 minimum wage when driverless trucks cost 1/2 minimum wage to operate. Humans may want to sharpen their pencils and outcompete automation o…

And my point is that what the minimum wage is doesn't matter anyway. You can't lower your minimum wage by law, but you also can't live on that, either. What does it matter if your salary is competitive with that of a machine if you can't afford food, shelter, or any other of life's necessities?

Minimum wage is, by all accounts, a success. It prevents employers from creating jobs that prevent a person from ever being successful. And we know that it's good and successful because we have the data to show that it does indeed raise the quality of living to a "barely first world" standard for many people. Seeing this on HN:

> not allowing people to have salaries competitively priced vs machines will cause most of the swift pain AI will bring.

is startling to me. Who does the OP think this person is that can live on $5/hr or lower? Minimum wage _as it is_ is arguably too low. It's sad that this illusion of "if you lower minimum wage, people will work for the lower wage" seems so pervasive, because it's thrown out as if minimum wage employees are trying to be competitive. If you've eaten twice in the last two days and you're about to lose your car, you'll work for almost anything if it means keeping your head above water for a couple more days. Minimum wage is a solution to a human problem, not a business problem. If a job can't be performed competitively for a survivable salary, employers shouldn't be allowed to say, "well if you don't mind not having heat in your home..." and should instead be forced to use automation. Yeah, it sucks being laid off, but there will always be more minimum wage jobs. If you take away minimum wage, now you're left with even fewer reasonable prospects of a job that pays a survivable wage.

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#57

I’ve spent a long time thinking about this, and I actually think that most of the dangers are somewhat overblown and the corrective actions are already in progress. People are already willing to pay a premium for artisanal goods specifically because they are made by a human being, and this provides a growing economic niche for artisans. In and of itself, this isn’t exactly sufficient, since artisans don’t usually mak…

"A quarter of all working visual artists earn no money from their art, and another quarter earn less than $1,000 a year. Almost 90% earn less than $5,000 a year. Similarly disturbing figures can be quoted for poets, short-story writers, playwrights, novelists, independent filmmakers, pop singers, potters, jazz musicians, rock musicians, classical composers, art photographers -- for all groups of creative and performi…

I said “artisans”, not “artists”. Not art, but things that people already buy, and already pay a premium for small-scale band production, like furniture and jewelry and ice cream.

A poorer home in the future might have a cheap AI-made TV, cheap AI-made cookware, a fridge full of groceries delivered either by drone or self-driving car, cheap mass-produced IKEA furniture assembled by a robot, all of these things “cheap” by cost but still higher quality than the mass-produced goods of today, but maybe the one luxury might be a handmade rocking chair from a local woodworker, who lives in similarly comfortable standards and spends his days building and selling chairs and canoes and cabinetry and whatnot, none of which is necessarily materially better than the stuff manufactured in drone factories and shipped across the world in drone ships and drone trucks, but people will pay extra for the small luxury of having their own special handmade things sometimes.

Also, because the necessities of life are so cheap, the woodworker can invest a big chunk of his woodworking income in index funds and have a share of the AI-generated wealth.

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#58
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this time it will be different. We're not talking about a shift from one class of employment to another, we're talking about a shift from employment to unemployment for a very large chunk of the population and we don't have the foggiest idea of where we will find the money to pay for that and we haven't got a clue on how we will keep these people from feeling worthless and depressed. It's an illusion to think tha…

You are making the same mistake as the author. People are endlessly creative and will find productive uses for their labor. I'm not ignoring the fact that people won't face disruption in the labor market, however it is very naive to assume that all of the work that will ever need to be done can be done by AI. People will not be pensioned off at 23 they will just be doing jobs that were not possible before, just like…

You really should study the history of the industrial revolution a bit more. It's not that as a species we did not manage to accommodate it, it's just that untold millions of individuals were made obsolete and they did not adapt.

The naivety is in assuming that there are simple limits to what AGI will and will not be able to do.

It's not an evolutionary change, it is a revolutionary change where the world as you see it today will have very little resemblance to the world the way it will be afterwards. If that change happens too fast there will be a lot of blood spilled.

Ignoring all this is one surefire way to bring about one of the worst variations on the theme - assuming it is inevitable, which the jury is still out on but the first steps on the ladder are being taken as we speak.

There was a good article on here a while ago about how safe your job is:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14443606

Now zoom out to the rest of the world, take a decade or two as the timeframe and multiply by the likelihood.

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A quarter of all working visual artists earn no money from their art, and another quarter earn less than $1,000 a year. Almost 90% earn less than $5,000 a year. Similarly disturbing figures can be quoted for poets, short-story writers, playwrights, novelists, independent filmmakers, pop singers, potters, jazz musicians, rock musicians, classical composers, art photographers -- for all groups of creative and performi…

I said “artisans”, not “artists”. Not art, but things that people already buy, and already pay a premium for small-scale band production, like furniture and jewelry and ice cream. A poorer home in the future might have a cheap AI-made TV, cheap AI-made cookware, a fridge full of groceries delivered either by drone or self-driving car, cheap mass-produced IKEA furniture assembled by a robot, all of these things “cheap…

Much of what I said above applies equally to artisans as it does to artists.

People might be paying a premium for hand-made trinkets now, but if there's a glut of supply from all the new artisans, those prices will plummet unless a huge amount of new demand for these artisonal goods materializes.

Sure, these newly unemployed people might themselves occasionally be able to splurge on some hand made trinket, but it's very unlikely that they themselves will be providing enough income to sustain each other. As now, the vast majority of purchasers of artisonal goods are likely to be the relatively well off, and there's just not that much demand among them to absorb the new glut of supply, so artisonal wages will necessarily plummet.

That's all assuming that the newly unemployed will will want to and somehow magically be trained to make furniture, jewelry, hand-made ice cream or what have you. Doing that to a high enough quality that people will actually buy and value what you make to outcompete all the other artisans making similar stuff is not going to be easy.

Also, it's far from clear that the cheapness of manufacture of AI-made goods will result in lower prices for the consumer. Prices consumers pay might remain the same and the extra profit be pocketed by the manufacturers.

To your final point about investing in index funds, it's far from a certainty that the index will continue to rise in the future. It could fall for any number of reasons, in which case even those fortunate enough to be able to afford to invest in the market will suffer.

Re: Tech companies should stop pretending AI won’t destroy jobs

#60
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're dealing with a different kind of mechanization this time, previous mechanizations were largely manual labors. We've been retreating further and further into the one thing we haven't been able to automate away, our creative intelligence and problem solving, what happens when we figure out how to write something that can do that? It's like being a horse at the turn of the last century saying well we've always had…

It's not really the same as for horses. Horses in society lost control of their own reproductive rights. Horses existed to fill jobs because people bred them to meet a demand. As demand for horses declined, fewer horses were bred. We have the opposite situation with humans. Individual humans retain their reproductive rights. Most of them don't decide to reduce the supply to meet a reduced demand. For a time, China di…

I'm not sure having reproductive rights has any bearing on weather or not we can find jobs people are exclusively more qualified to do.
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