Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

insidehighered.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 130 posts

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#101

Post by nitwit005 »

lr4444lr wrote: post #32

But Brandon Busteed, executive director of Gallup's higher education division, which also conducts research related to graduates and careers, said these sorts of definitions can vary For instance, Gallup has found that generally an employer believes that "critical thinking" is coming up with new, original thought. But in an academic sense, it can mean more picking apart ideas in depth, he said. Given that their defin…

It's fairly normal for terms to have different academic and non-academic usage. There is a reason so many surveys define terms.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#102

Post by eikenberry »

lr4444lr wrote: post #32

But Brandon Busteed, executive director of Gallup's higher education division, which also conducts research related to graduates and careers, said these sorts of definitions can vary For instance, Gallup has found that generally an employer believes that "critical thinking" is coming up with new, original thought. But in an academic sense, it can mean more picking apart ideas in depth, he said. Given that their defin…

I agree and can't imagine how they asked the employers the definition of critical thinking and got that response. The answer is so ridiculously wrong it that they must have asked a loaded question to get such a response.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#103

Post by leetcrew »

autokad wrote: post #93
tankenmate wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you are just going off on a tangent or just completely missed greedo's point. If you can't write in your mother tongue properly you probably can't code properly either.

they are two completely different skill sets, and i think on some level you must know that, or have no idea what coding is. Not just different, but orthogonal. When one is good at one, they tend to be worse at the other.

disagree.

writing creatively or with nuance is definitely an orthogonal skill to coding, but understanding and following grammar rules requires a very similar syntax-parsing ability to that which is required to write code that will compile. unless you struggle to get simple programs to compile, you very likely have the ability to write with proper grammar, assuming you are willing to make the effort.

I would even argue that the skill of technical writing, where precision and compactness are valued over creative flourish, maps very closely onto the same skills needed for good program design and clean coding style.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#104

Post by wavegeek »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #97
ryandrake wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the thing about the "expressos," "irregardless," "for all intensive purposes," and "mute points" out there: Even if the meaning is clear and the communication is successful, these convey a carelessness and sloppiness that, as a great engineer, you don't deserve! As someone who knows what you're doing and takes pride in your craft, things like bad spelling and usage needlessly undermine your credibility.

They do undermine one’s credibility. At the same time, a cursory study of German, French, Hebrew, even Japanese would suggest that English spelling is needlessly complicated and ambiguous. Part of addressing this problem for future generations is a push for spelling reform.

I've learned a lot of languages and they all have their problems. E.g. the horribly complicated broken Kanji characters in Japanese and Chinese. E.g. the almost completely pointless genders in German, and resulting requirements for other words changing in regular and irregular ways in agreement. Similarly verb tenses are insanely over-complicated. English is reasonably easy to learn compared to many other languages.

It is harder than it looks to fix spelling because in the written language different words that sound the same are spelled differently. Making the written language phonetic would create ambiguity.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#105

Post by homonculus1 »

nitwit005 wrote: post #101
lr4444lr wrote: post #32

But Brandon Busteed, executive director of Gallup's higher education division, which also conducts research related to graduates and careers, said these sorts of definitions can vary For instance, Gallup has found that generally an employer believes that "critical thinking" is coming up with new, original thought. But in an academic sense, it can mean more picking apart ideas in depth, he said. Given that their defin…

It's fairly normal for terms to have different academic and non-academic usage. There is a reason so many surveys define terms.

Critical thinking isn't some kind of academic jargon. It literally means applying criticism to the subject of thought.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#106

Post by jadedhacker »

"The easy solution: set students up in a more professional environment, Busteed said -- this could be internships or co-op programs. If students can't go to an actual office, then the environment should be brought to them so they have a better sense of how a workplace runs."

Because education is only about job training so that workers are pliant and ready to to be directed by the system of hierarchy. Thus, turn higher education into the same factory training that high school is. This, in an era when profits are already soaring.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#107

Post by jackvalentine »

austincheney wrote: post #34
araes wrote: post #4

Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. Its what I paid you for right? Naturally, they answer with high confidence in their readiness. People who have worked a long time are in part answering for themselves. They look back at how much they've learned, changed, and developed. How much they had to learn on…

> Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. Its what I paid you for right? Then the person misunderstood what education is and reality is about to slap them in the face. I started a career before graduating college and now have two simultaneous careers. The benefit of having multiple simultaneous careers is…

> Then the person misunderstood what education is and reality is about to slap them in the face.

Sure, but that doesn't change that it's heavily implied by the education industry and society as you grow up what OP said. If your entire life someone's been telling you an orange is an apple then when asked "what's that?" you'll answer an apple.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#108

Post by walshemj »

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #96
walshemj wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you could just as well say its six or 1/2 a dozen of the other. I am some what prone to that as well as a dyslexic but at 10 I had a reading age of 18+ However you could turn that around and say well maybe your reading comprehension skills are not as good as mine. https://www.davidsongifted.org/Search-Database/entry/A10435

You can indeed say all of that, but both statements are merely misdirection. Saying its "six of one, half dozen of the other" is a colorful way of saying mistakes are irrelevant; sotojuan is wrong, they don't actually detract from the communication. But you provide no reason. As for your reading skills, the subject is writing communications, but from your reading skill you can see the value of writing quality.

err that's not what "six of one, half dozen of the other" means

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#109

Post by bjz_ »

dozzie wrote: post #12
araes wrote: post #4

Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. Its what I paid you for right? Naturally, they answer with high confidence in their readiness. People who have worked a long time are in part answering for themselves. They look back at how much they've learned, changed, and developed. How much they had to learn on…

> Implied in finishing university is the expectation that you have been taught what you need to make it in the work place. Its part of the social contract. No. That's not contract , it's a dumb expectation , though shared by many. Vocational school is for training for a job. Universities have no sensible way to teach how industry operates, while industry does have the capabilities for teaching that.

Agreed, and I think it's harmful to universities to expect that. We need universities to excel at what they are good at - preparing students to push the frontier of their field. They're not job factories for industry and shouldn't have to try to be.

Re: Overconfident Students, Dubious Employers

#110

Post by nitwit005 »

homonculus1 wrote: post #105
nitwit005 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's fairly normal for terms to have different academic and non-academic usage. There is a reason so many surveys define terms.

Critical thinking isn't some kind of academic jargon. It literally means applying criticism to the subject of thought.

And? It's normal for words to drift in meaning over time. You have to deal with the reality of language, not "how it's supposed to be".
Post reply on HN