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Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

reuters.com

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Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#101
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn’t watch the video did you. That’s not how it works. The key is your device passcode.

The key for the backups can’t be the device passcode because the device passcode protects the key stored in the Secure Enclave on the device that is the local encryption key also 6 digits isn’t nearly enough entropy for any key derivation algorithm. I can download a backup from iCloud and unpack it in any device or use a 3rd party application to view to content of the backup and the only thing I need is the Apple acc…

"We have a feature called iCloud Keychain Backup, and here's what we do. We have a new credential, the iCloud Security Code, and most often this is the device passcode."

- Apple security architect, in the aforelinked video, which you still didn't watch

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll feel different the first time the "social credit" system ends up denying you a loan because of something you said in a private message. Or you'd feel real different if you were a Uighur who lived in Xinjiang. Right now, thanks to a growing economy, no one cares about rocking the boat, or what the government does. That will all change when China experiences its first deep recession, and like the US, the governm…

The current credit systems in China works very, very differently from what the western media describes. Major commercial systems like "Zhemaxinyong" are actually way more transparent than US credit system. You get to see a lot of the details about what's impacting your score at all time, and you have lots of control on where do you want to share your score to. The official "social credit" system that the government w…

Right, it's all the delusions of the Western media as to how this could go wrong, because we never had any things go wrong with blacklists in the West? In the 1950s we had anti-communist blacklists that didn't work out too well. Today we have the terrorist watch list. It's our experience with government creating blacklists and the inherent injustice from false positives that make us very wary of it. People have accidentally gotten onto the terrorist watch list and had their lives ruined.

In China, you have this combined with a President who seems bent on keeping power forever (removing term limits), a party which aggressively blocks and filters anything critical of the government, the installation of key-loggers, face recognition cams, firewalls, and a huge system of monitoring social media, that should raise alarms when there is talk about a universal social ranking, as it's pretty obvious how easy you could end up with a low ranking from off hand joke about the government on Weibo. (https://international.thenewslens.com/article/65955)

I assume you've been living abroad for a while, so you must know we that aggressively criticize our own governments because we don't trust them to do the right thing, and there is ample lessons from history that proves that out. While the Chinese government wants to credit a social credit system to keep the population "honest", there is no "good governance credit system" to keep the government "honest". In the West, we have independent court systems to try and achieve that, as well as democratic elections. It doesn't always work, and corruption still flourishes, (good lord, the fucking Trump administration) but at least there's some attempted check on government power and corruption.

All I'd say is, a glass heart when China is criticized is probably not the best way to react, but I guess it may be the only way to react, since criticism of the government isn't really permitted publicly internally, the only Chinese widespread public criticism is from the external diaspora. My own feeling is that Xi is taking the country in the wrong direction and there appears to be no internal forces to stop him.

Anyway, here's an example of the hell of disputing these kinds of lists.

https://www.marketplace.org/2018/02/13/world/social-credit-s...

"Lawyer Li Xiaolin was also not given advanced notice that he was blacklisted.

In 2014, Li was sued for defamation and lost. A judge ordered Li to make an apology, which he submitted in writing in April 2015. Ten months later, when he was away on a work trip, he was blocked from buying a return flight home to Beijing. That’s when he found out he was blacklisted.

It took him another three weeks before an official told him why.

“The court said my apology was not sincere. I asked officials how they determined what is sincere.” Li said.

Eventually Li wrote a second apology and the court removed him from the blacklist in 2016. Then last year, he tried to get a credit card.

“The bank denied my application. I figured out that the bank might still have my name blacklisted and I was right,” Li said.

The bank updated its records the next day, but by that point, he had spent almost a year to fully clear his name."

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current credit systems in China works very, very differently from what the western media describes. Major commercial systems like "Zhemaxinyong" are actually way more transparent than US credit system. You get to see a lot of the details about what's impacting your score at all time, and you have lots of control on where do you want to share your score to. The official "social credit" system that the government w…

Right, it's all the delusions of the Western media as to how this could go wrong, because we never had any things go wrong with blacklists in the West? In the 1950s we had anti-communist blacklists that didn't work out too well. Today we have the terrorist watch list. It's our experience with government creating blacklists and the inherent injustice from false positives that make us very wary of it. People have accid…

> A party which aggressively blocks and filters anything critical of the government, the installation of key-loggers, face recognition cams, firewalls, and a huge system of monitoring social media

I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'd like to point out that U.S. (and many of its allies) has all those things as well, apart from the aggressive filtering.

At least China is up front about it.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, it's all the delusions of the Western media as to how this could go wrong, because we never had any things go wrong with blacklists in the West? In the 1950s we had anti-communist blacklists that didn't work out too well. Today we have the terrorist watch list. It's our experience with government creating blacklists and the inherent injustice from false positives that make us very wary of it. People have accid…

> A party which aggressively blocks and filters anything critical of the government, the installation of key-loggers, face recognition cams, firewalls, and a huge system of monitoring social media I'm sure you're aware of this, but I'd like to point out that U.S. (and many of its allies) has all those things as well, apart from the aggressive filtering. At least China is up front about it.

False equivalence.

The US has no regulation that requires the installation of spyware or face a fine or jail. China does (https://www.deepdotweb.com/2017/08/12/chinese-government-req...).

The US has no laws requiring firewalls to block or censor content from foreign countries. The US doesn't block VPNs and there is no law against them.

Yes, they try to snoop on communications, but in US domestic citizens and companies can resist with encryption and in the courts, and in general, a warrant is required for legal access. Having the NSA snoop on your conversations or use 0-days to hack isn't the same as being told to put security backdoors by the government and go to jail if you don't.

And "aggressive filtering" is your euphemism for the Great Firewall? I'd call sending to to jail for selling a VPN a little more than "aggressive filtering"

I've lived in China and to call it "aggressive filtering" is a pretty nice way of putting it.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever way, it doesn't matter that much. At least where Apple wants to put their server makes no difference. It's not that we are "unaware" of anything, we just don't feel the same way about privacy (and many other western values as well). Not that they're bad, we just don't believe they're so important. Sure you think you "know the importance of privacy", but that's rather just an opinion, not a fact. In fact, an…

You'll feel different the first time the "social credit" system ends up denying you a loan because of something you said in a private message. Or you'd feel real different if you were a Uighur who lived in Xinjiang. Right now, thanks to a growing economy, no one cares about rocking the boat, or what the government does. That will all change when China experiences its first deep recession, and like the US, the governm…

Americans really shouldn't be commenting on the credit system of other countries...

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll feel different the first time the "social credit" system ends up denying you a loan because of something you said in a private message. Or you'd feel real different if you were a Uighur who lived in Xinjiang. Right now, thanks to a growing economy, no one cares about rocking the boat, or what the government does. That will all change when China experiences its first deep recession, and like the US, the governm…

Americans really shouldn't be commenting on the credit system of other countries...

Why not? Because our's is very bad? Why does that preclude one from commenting on any credit system around the world? It's standard practice on HackerNews to comment on surveillance and tracking systems in general and point out the dangers of them. There are lots of European commentators discussing US government policy, and vice versa. All criticism is fair, where you are born or what your government has done in the past doesn't invalidate one's opinion. There's too much nationalism sensitivity in these kinds of discussions when someone takes offense to someone else criticizing their country.

There are some aspects of China's proposal which are good in regards to giving scores to businesses in an effort to regulate them, similar to independent reputation systems in the West, but it is the promises of "holistic rating of character" they've made and the comments about introduction of big data deep learning techniques that have people concerned. Even if intentions were completely benign, you could end up with something very bad.

The idea of using surveillance capitalism in a multipolar system is one thing, especially if there is a very transparent dispute system, but using it at the state level should scare everyone. People complain about being ruined by small tweaks to Google's ranking algorithm, but having a single ranking instituted by a government monopoly would be inescapable.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#107
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but you're still ignoring the basic fact that activists and even criminals in liberal democracies have legal and human rights. In China, you have no guarantees and no recourse. Torture, forced confession and retaliation against your family are all on the table. That's why no one worries about US activists the same way they do about Chinese ones.

> Ok but you're still ignoring the basic fact that activists and even criminals in liberal democracies have legal and human rights. Such as moving those criminals and activists to Guantánamo Bay? Oh, Obama trolled to shut it down almost a decade ago after acknowledging its wide spread human right violations, why it is still in operation in the same shape and form? You are free to troll whatever you like, that is not…

Also, US inmate population is far larger than China's one, even though the former population is much smaller. For this, American citizens can either believe their government is abusing human rights, or that Americans in general are more inclined to commit crimes. Which one is it?

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whichever way, it doesn't matter that much. At least where Apple wants to put their server makes no difference. It's not that we are "unaware" of anything, we just don't feel the same way about privacy (and many other western values as well). Not that they're bad, we just don't believe they're so important. Sure you think you "know the importance of privacy", but that's rather just an opinion, not a fact. In fact, an…

You'll feel different the first time the "social credit" system ends up denying you a loan because of something you said in a private message. Or you'd feel real different if you were a Uighur who lived in Xinjiang. Right now, thanks to a growing economy, no one cares about rocking the boat, or what the government does. That will all change when China experiences its first deep recession, and like the US, the governm…

[deleted]

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current credit systems in China works very, very differently from what the western media describes. Major commercial systems like "Zhemaxinyong" are actually way more transparent than US credit system. You get to see a lot of the details about what's impacting your score at all time, and you have lots of control on where do you want to share your score to. The official "social credit" system that the government w…

Right, it's all the delusions of the Western media as to how this could go wrong, because we never had any things go wrong with blacklists in the West? In the 1950s we had anti-communist blacklists that didn't work out too well. Today we have the terrorist watch list. It's our experience with government creating blacklists and the inherent injustice from false positives that make us very wary of it. People have accid…

I'm not denying China doesn't have problems. It has tons of problems in fact. Aggressive blocking is annoying. But let's take a break and see:

Do you think you have to be super careful if you are in China and not to call Xi "Steamed Bun"?

Do you seriously believe anyone in China would get blocked of loans because a credit system is in place that assigns low score to anyone talking ill of the government?

That's what western media wants you to think. The truth behind these stories are usually a lot more complicated, but it's not in the interest of the media to unravel all the truth.

In fact, tons of people calls Xi "Steamed Bun" in China, it's like his nickname, I also do that myself.

And yes, a government blacklist do exists in China. It's totally reasonable you'll at least be denied of applying for loans if you made your way to that list. I couldn't find the reason why those Xie is on that blacklist (the article certainly downplayed that part, at least), but the article also said "Hu said the central government has not assigned any social credit scores to its citizens yet, but eventually there will be a financial credit score".

Did you see what that mean? At least these cases in the report do not have much to do with credit system because it doesn't exist yet. How things would turned out eventually is a guess, at most.

I've lived in US for quite some time, and saw tons of shit show. Why do American news media split into "Left" and "Right"? If you read reports from both sides, you'll almost see two entirely different world. And yet most Americans do not do so, they chose one side and read only what they want to believe. Is either side lying? Maybe, but not necessarily. News reporters just need to selectively report the truth that can reinforce what they believe. Magnify problems of the other side, and downplay anything that they found hurtful. That's just human nature

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