I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck • Hacker News Board

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#21

Post by jrockway » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:00 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #19

jrockway wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't disagree more. This is a great project for learning how to use LLVM because there is nothing to add complexity. There is no need for a runtime library. There is no need for a complicated parser. With those parts gone, all that matters is building the compiler, JIT core, tracing algorithm, and so on. Now that the author knows how to do all that, he's mentally prepared to be productive when taking on a more com…

> You seem to think that because it's on Github you're supposed to use it. Actually, if you read my post, you would have understood that that is not the case:-/ Your point about it being a "minimum viable language" is a good one though, but I find it difficult to think there isn't something else he could have chosen.

find it difficult to think there isn't something else he could have chosen

Why do you care? How does this affect you in any way?

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#22

Post by davidw » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:04 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #21

davidw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You seem to think that because it's on Github you're supposed to use it. Actually, if you read my post, you would have understood that that is not the case:-/ Your point about it being a "minimum viable language" is a good one though, but I find it difficult to think there isn't something else he could have chosen.

find it difficult to think there isn't something else he could have chosen Why do you care? How does this affect you in any way?

It's obviously not my place to say what other people do with their time. It just seems like wasted effort to me; that's all.

I guess arguing against the groupthink (replete with reddit style mob downvoting) is an even bigger waste of time, though.

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#23

Post by davidw » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:07 PM UTC

infinite8s wrote: post #20

davidw wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, you people are seriously failing to comprehend that which I am attempting to communicate to you. * I have no problems with 'fun projects'. I do them myself. * I have no problem with 'useless code'. Many fun projects are never useful. I have done these myself. * I have no problem with learning for learning's sake. I have engaged in lots of that. What I don't agree with is artificially limiting your project's poten…

Not sure why you see implementing a simple language to learn the underlying techniques as "artificially limiting" the project's potential. Maybe this is just a step to implementing a more complicated language.

> Not sure why you see implementing a simple language to learn the underlying techniques as "artificially limiting" the project's potential.

Even a simple language like Hecl is used for real things in the real world, something I wouldn't have imagined when I started writing it. An implementation of Brainfuck will never be used for anything more than learning.

Which continues to be my point: learning's great, but why not learn and do something that has a tiny chance of developing into something big?

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#24

Post by jrockway » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:56 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #22

jrockway wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

find it difficult to think there isn't something else he could have chosen Why do you care? How does this affect you in any way?

It's obviously not my place to say what other people do with their time. It just seems like wasted effort to me; that's all. I guess arguing against the groupthink (replete with reddit style mob downvoting) is an even bigger waste of time, though.

Seems like you have 18,000 more upvotes than downvotes, so maybe you are just in a bad mood today. Deep breath and smile!

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#25

Post by magamiako » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 1:58 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #23

infinite8s wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you see implementing a simple language to learn the underlying techniques as "artificially limiting" the project's potential. Maybe this is just a step to implementing a more complicated language.

> Not sure why you see implementing a simple language to learn the underlying techniques as "artificially limiting" the project's potential. Even a simple language like Hecl is used for real things in the real world, something I wouldn't have imagined when I started writing it. An implementation of Brainfuck will never be used for anything more than learning. Which continues to be my point: learning's great, but why…

You're assuming that every thing that people work on actually needs the potential to become "big".

What about the people that study klingon? Or Esperanto? Or Elvish?

You assume that a person cannot gain something by simply learning something that has no practical purpose. This isn't the case. By working on BF, someone might make some neuron connections that help them with logical thought with other projects, by breaking down logical thinking into very simplistic, basic symbols--completely removing "language" out of the equation.

You just don't know. :P

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#26

Post by davidw » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 2:19 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #24

davidw wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's obviously not my place to say what other people do with their time. It just seems like wasted effort to me; that's all. I guess arguing against the groupthink (replete with reddit style mob downvoting) is an even bigger waste of time, though.

Seems like you have 18,000 more upvotes than downvotes, so maybe you are just in a bad mood today. Deep breath and smile!

I don't give a shit about karma, I do intensely dislike the idea of "piling on" downvotes, for myself or others, as I have expressed many times in the past with regards to others' postings.

It's a great way of discouraging the expression of dissenting ideas. You're correct that I have the 'reserves' to express any number of actual crockpot ideas, but not everyone does.

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#27

Post by acqq » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 2:21 PM UTC

magamiako wrote: post #25

davidw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why you see implementing a simple language to learn the underlying techniques as "artificially limiting" the project's potential. Even a simple language like Hecl is used for real things in the real world, something I wouldn't have imagined when I started writing it. An implementation of Brainfuck will never be used for anything more than learning. Which continues to be my point: learning's great, but why…

You're assuming that every thing that people work on actually needs the potential to become "big". What about the people that study klingon? Or Esperanto? Or Elvish? You assume that a person cannot gain something by simply learning something that has no practical purpose. This isn't the case. By working on BF, someone might make some neuron connections that help them with logical thought with other projects, by break…

Then how about giving an example of somebody who had some benefit of learning Klingon, not related to Klingon as is?

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#28

Post by davidw » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 2:22 PM UTC

magamiako wrote: post #25

davidw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why you see implementing a simple language to learn the underlying techniques as "artificially limiting" the project's potential. Even a simple language like Hecl is used for real things in the real world, something I wouldn't have imagined when I started writing it. An implementation of Brainfuck will never be used for anything more than learning. Which continues to be my point: learning's great, but why…

You're assuming that every thing that people work on actually needs the potential to become "big". What about the people that study klingon? Or Esperanto? Or Elvish? You assume that a person cannot gain something by simply learning something that has no practical purpose. This isn't the case. By working on BF, someone might make some neuron connections that help them with logical thought with other projects, by break…

> You assume that a person cannot gain something by simply learning something that has no practical purpose

Actually, what I wrote, if you'd bother to read it, is: "Yeah, he learned something for sure, but that's pretty much all it can be." so don't put words into my mouth.

The point boils down to this:

* It'll probably never become big.

* That doesn't really matter, it's mostly for learning and for fun.

* But even so, why preclude that? > You're assuming that every thing that people work on actually needs the potential to become "big".

If you get that essentially for free, then why the hell not?

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#29

Post by magamiako » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 2:24 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #27

magamiako wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming that every thing that people work on actually needs the potential to become "big". What about the people that study klingon? Or Esperanto? Or Elvish? You assume that a person cannot gain something by simply learning something that has no practical purpose. This isn't the case. By working on BF, someone might make some neuron connections that help them with logical thought with other projects, by break…

Then how about giving an example of somebody who had some benefit of learning Klingon, not related to Klingon as is?

Specifically, some of the gutteral sounds used in Klingon are sounds that are used in real languages. If you're a native American-English speaker, these sounds do not exist in our language. If someone here is so dedicated to learning Klingon and Star Trek, it might open their ability to A) learn real languages easier, B) to pronounce many of the sounds used in those languages.

Re: I wrote an LLVM-powered trace-based JIT for Brainfuck

#30

Post by steveklabnik » Mon, Aug 30, 2010, 2:40 PM UTC

magamiako wrote: post #25

davidw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not sure why you see implementing a simple language to learn the underlying techniques as "artificially limiting" the project's potential. Even a simple language like Hecl is used for real things in the real world, something I wouldn't have imagined when I started writing it. An implementation of Brainfuck will never be used for anything more than learning. Which continues to be my point: learning's great, but why…

You're assuming that every thing that people work on actually needs the potential to become "big". What about the people that study klingon? Or Esperanto? Or Elvish? You assume that a person cannot gain something by simply learning something that has no practical purpose. This isn't the case. By working on BF, someone might make some neuron connections that help them with logical thought with other projects, by break…

cough

"Elvish" doesn't actually exist. There's Quenya, or 'high' elvish and Sindarin, 'low' or 'gray' elvish.

cough

Carry on!