You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes • Hacker News Board

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#101

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sun, Feb 25, 2018, 4:49 PM UTC

arghwhat wrote: post #100

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole job center/activation system is a Kafkaesque nightmare of demotivation and denigration, according to people who've been through it. Instead of making the stick bigger and more scary, why don't we focus on making the carrot tastier instead? Having a job is not a goal in itself, having a decent life is. A job is simply a tool to that end (and not the only one).

Ah, but that is exactly my point: You can lead a decent albeit depressed life on unemployment support. What's your motivation to improve, especially considering that you are in a position where motivation comes about as often as pigs fly? I don't think there is much of a way to make the goal "nicer" (we can't demand that the jobs get better, and there is already significant benefit: better living standard, better men…

You don't motivate people by making their already shitty situation even shittier. That just drives them even further into depression and hopelessness.

What we should be doing is giving them more help, better educational options, activation courses that actually benefit them, instead of wasting their time. Offer them actual training for another your of job, if the one they used have isn't viable anymore. And drop the stupid requirements to send so and so many applications every week, which is just pointless busywork.

Make a positive change, rather than a negative one.

I say let the couple hundred or so deliberately workshy persons be. You're never going to convince them to work, and if you force them, they'll do a shitty no-effort job of it, probably reducing other people's productivity in the process. Just let them be, let them be artists or whatever. It's the least costly option.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#102

Post by arghwhat » Sun, Feb 25, 2018, 6:50 PM UTC

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #101

arghwhat wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but that is exactly my point: You can lead a decent albeit depressed life on unemployment support. What's your motivation to improve, especially considering that you are in a position where motivation comes about as often as pigs fly? I don't think there is much of a way to make the goal "nicer" (we can't demand that the jobs get better, and there is already significant benefit: better living standard, better men…

You don't motivate people by making their already shitty situation even shittier. That just drives them even further into depression and hopelessness. What we should be doing is giving them more help, better educational options, activation courses that actually benefit them, instead of wasting their time. Offer them actual training for another your of job, if the one they used have isn't viable anymore. And drop the…

There are plenty of educational options. Most of the educational system is free, you get financial support while using it, and some paid vocational courses are free to the unemployed.

But it entirely misses the point: Those stuck are too depressed to help themselves. Depression is very difficult to work with.

Furthermore, the stand-by situation of being stuck in unemployment is just as good as a low-end job. In other words, nothing about the situation provides incentive to change it, especially not considering that those there have no motivation to help themselves.

The workshy is an entirely different case. Those can't be helped as long as the safety net is in place. They would probably help cure themselves if the safety net wasn't there, but removing it would harm others.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#103

Post by pcwalton » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 7:05 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #51

rdiddly wrote: post #49

I notice the absorption of outsiders is portrayed as a goal, implying that it's an unalloyed good, beyond question. Is there some good reason to think that? I mean America prides itself on it, but is there any good reason to think that (for example) Danes should be responsible for non-Danes? Or on a basic level, what's wrong with having places exist in the world where the people there are mostly from there? Isn't tha…

If you're going to accept outsiders, you need to integrate them. That's always been one of America's strengths--putting together a somewhat governable country out of ethnic groups that had long been at war with each other in their home countries (German, English, Irish, etc.), oh, and had enslaved each other's ancestors (African Americans). You don't need to accept outside immigration. Japan and Korea are very nice c…

> You don't need to accept outside immigration. Japan and Korea are very nice countries that are almost completely ethnically homogeneous.

You need to accept immigration if you want your economy to grow and be sustainable. Japan is an example of what happens if you don't--just look at the Nikkei 225 after 1990.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#104

Post by KozmoNau7 » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 8:18 AM UTC

arghwhat wrote: post #102

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't motivate people by making their already shitty situation even shittier. That just drives them even further into depression and hopelessness. What we should be doing is giving them more help, better educational options, activation courses that actually benefit them, instead of wasting their time. Offer them actual training for another your of job, if the one they used have isn't viable anymore. And drop the…

There are plenty of educational options. Most of the educational system is free, you get financial support while using it, and some paid vocational courses are free to the unemployed. But it entirely misses the point: Those stuck are too depressed to help themselves. Depression is very difficult to work with. Furthermore, the stand-by situation of being stuck in unemployment is just as good as a low-end job. In other…

>Those stuck are too depressed to help themselves. Depression is very difficult to work with.

And that is exactly why we need to help them, instead of just beating them with a bigger stick by making their situations even more hopeless.

>The workshy is an entirely different case. Those can't be helped as long as the safety net is in place.

"Helped", as if not enjoying having to work is some kind of illness or disability. It's perfectly natural, some people just don't enjoy work or being bossed around, they have other impulses instead.

Why should they not be entitled to a comfortable life, simply because they don't prioritize work?

Work is universally shit and a massive burden on one's private life and spare time. Those claiming to enjoy their work are simply deluding themselves (or they're basic simpletons). I know, because I've been there myself until I realized what time-wasting grind it is. Since then I have only given exactly what's needed, there is no incentive to go above and beyond , it simply isn't valued anymore. The scales have tipped way too far, and these days loyalty only goes one way, the wrong way. Everyone would be happier if we all worked a bit less.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#105

Post by fxmc » Mon, Feb 26, 2018, 12:15 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #71

mieseratte wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, here's what I don't understand? If it causes societal trouble why let all these troublesome groups in? Does Denmark have some long history as a "nation of immigrants" like the United States does or is this some sort of self-inflicted punishment?

As others point out we did have guest works, we also had Vietnamese boat-refugees, Bosnians refugees from the Balkan wars. The thing is: there was never that many of either groups. So no, Denmark isn't a nation of immigrants, not even close. Both left and right leaning governments have failed to implement good integration policies. The parties on the left have been to naive and assume that things would naturally work…

As a German, I'd say that this perfectly describes the situation in Germany as well, including your last paragraph. The erosion of trust among Germans has also started a long time ago, no later than the early nineties.