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Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

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Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#81

My experience is the opposite: I find that managers who are not from a software engineering background are generally better. In my experience managers from a software engineering background are usually lower skilled engineers who tend to overrate their own skill level and make bad technical decisions where a non-engineer manager would defer to the expert opinion of the people they manage.

My experience agrees although proper management training/mentoring can alleviate some of the issues.

However the timeline I've experienced is different:

* You have a great engineer or lead who knows the project inside and out

* They are promoted to management.

* They still know the project inside and out plus were recently coding so they dictate how things are done technically. It works great.

* They get put on a new project which they don't know inside and out.

* They dictate how things should be done technically because it worked for them in the past successfully. It works horribly.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#82
post #61

I was recently a lead developer and asked to manage the team by the team. I noticed running the team can't be generalized in one size fits all, some people just want clear descriptions of projects to work and and some people want to over engineer and make a 1 day thing a 2 month job no matter how you say it should be done. Problem is how do you handle a engineer that says something can't be done in 2 hours? Well so f…

>most of the room follows my instructions

Be aware that this works only because you were technical lead of the project and recently active in a hands on capacity. It will likely fail you once you are on a new project that you don't know technically and your skills are years out of date. So learn to find, trust and nurture the experts on your team instead.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#83
post #15

Sometimes we engineers do a poor job of communicating complexity: we have un-communicated assumptions that we think the listening party shares. Which sometimes lead to this: "You could prepend the words “it’s just” to anything, it’s not going to change the fact that you sound completely ignorant and will ignore any challenges that your team communicates to you." I have often found it effective to counter "just-justif…

> Sometimes we engineers do a poor job of communicating complexity: we have un-communicated assumptions that we think the listening party shares.

IMO, a manager should understand the complexity of the work of his employee at an approx. ball park level.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#84
> Business types with none to little engineering experience should never, under any circumstances, manage engineers

In my experience as a developer at a bunch of different companies, the worst managers have actually been the opposite -- they were ex-engineers who knew nothing about management and decided to become managers for the wrong reasons (small raise, more power, etc), and had no passion for management. The longer one's career, the more one comes to respect managers, I think, and understand what a skill it is unto itself. Many young engineers have times when they feel hostile towards management or even the idea of having a "boss" at all, but that just makes the situation worse. One needs to have a more collaborative attitude to succeed. Again, it's the ex-engineers who think managements is just "common sense" are the ones you need to steer clear of.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not particularly directed at you, but it's certainly a dichotomy in that managers are the only ones responsible for "rethinking another's employment". I'm curious to know how often you would consider reflecting on / rethinking your own employment? I say this because I was recently hired to work on a project where managers are obviously the only ones responsible for deciding how a developer should function within the…

"rethinking employment" was a clever way of "firing someone who cannot take direction". If you're suggesting a manager sometimes needs to self-reflect, sure, but a good manager does eventually have to make the call that someone isn't up to snuff. There are several people in my department who probably should be "rethought" or let go, but management is too soft to make the call. It's actually more harmful to several, w…

[deleted]

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#86
No. Just no. I have been there to clean up the mess that results from this methodology.

A certain recipe for disaster in any development project is having no one who thoroughly understands the business and no one who can make a decision as to what gets developed and what does not. What this article is describing is just such a recipe.

Any significant development project which is attempting to address the needs of the enterprise needs an enterprise architect, and a project owner who can say no. If these can be the same person, all the better.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#87
Communicating complexity difficult.

I recognize the feeling when tasked with bringing a new developer up-to-speed. They don’t know anything about our environment and the brilliant decisions that led us to our utopian way of working. They ask an honest question and I, having forgotten the ingredients, brush off the question because I don’t have time to explain. Welcome to the team noob.

I also recognize the challenge when speaking with practically every CEO, COO, EVP, VP, and Director in a mid-sized organization. And the challenge can grow exponentially when the business involved views technology as an expense. Somewhere in the building there are a number of idiots who think a pointer is a device used for whiteboard presentations. How is this company profitable?

But solace comes when I realize the issue is my own.

Technical expertise is not the only expertise required by a company. It is highly likely that your organization has executives that don’t need to understand the productivity differences between vim and emacs. Imagine how frustrating it would be when attempting to ensure the company has enough funding for the next four quarters and you can’t get a single developer in the world to provide a reasonable estimate that doesn’t have a sixty-percent margin of error. I dare you to argue the benefits of a scrum master.

Your manager is just as anxious about having to talk to you. Give them a break and help them do their job. They’ll appreciate it and may care to understand your concerns moving forward. Who knows, they may be willing to help you do your job better (as if that's possible). Communication will be less frustrating when you stop viewing others as inferior. They feel the hostility.

The most successful amongst us are those that communicate by simplifying complex subjects down to an intelligible analogy. They sell. The world rewards those who sell. Just find another way sell your complexity, patiently, and with a touch of empathy. The rewards will follow.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#88
post #84

> Business types with none to little engineering experience should never, under any circumstances, manage engineers In my experience as a developer at a bunch of different companies, the worst managers have actually been the opposite -- they were ex-engineers who knew nothing about management and decided to become managers for the wrong reasons (small raise, more power, etc), and had no passion for management. The lo…

Curious if you have any advice for engineer->Dev manager?

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#89
I think there is a slight correlation between having some expertise in the team that you're managing and your overall performance as the manager. Some points along this argument include empathy for engineers' work, and I totally agree with you.

However, and especially at scale, there is a humanistic factor in management that having technical background alone can't fix. How do you manage deadlines? How do you deal with engineers who over-engineer a feature and go down that deep technical rabbit hole, with no "done date" in sight? How do you deal with people having to take a sabbatical but having an important project deadline around the corner? Heck, I'd argue engineers like myself are pretty bad at this and still constantly learning. Don't forget that expectation vs reality distortion is real. Great managers are essentially brokers to keep expectation and reality in check.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#90
post #84

> Business types with none to little engineering experience should never, under any circumstances, manage engineers In my experience as a developer at a bunch of different companies, the worst managers have actually been the opposite -- they were ex-engineers who knew nothing about management and decided to become managers for the wrong reasons (small raise, more power, etc), and had no passion for management. The lo…

I'll second that. The worst I've seen have always been engineers or developers who felt that seniority, in terms of years on the job, entitled them to a management role regardless of any ability or training for it. They inevitably engender a tremendous amount of friction and resentment in their peers and subordinates.

As for younger developers, I manage several right now. Showing them that a management role isn't about "bossing people around for the sake of it," but more about handling different areas of responsibility needed for projects to succeed - some technical, some not - really works.

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