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Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

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Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#72

Something I have wanted to ask the HN community, that this article brings up: what exactly does a scrum master do? From what I have observed at one business, there is one scrum master on every team. Many of them know nothing about the business that business does, and have no technical background. I have seen developers spend sometimes an hour or more a day explaining to scrum masters what they just built, so that the…

In my company, each team has a scrum master (a SM being part of 2/3 teams). They have near-zero technical knowledge, and this is what they do (no particular order):

- Give an organisation to the team, and make sure that this organisation does not decay with time - Help the devs work faster by helping them with the methodology - Help identifying & solving problems (a problem goes from "a dev spent one hour more than expected on this ticket" to "the client has no vision on what the product should be"). This is probably the most important task - Help the client to lead his project. This is a huge part too, the client does not know how to lead a project (they just came to us with a business problem they want to solve): there's no way the project will succeed if the client doesn't manage to have a clear vision for his product, prioritise tasks, build indicators, get user feedback...

Minor tasks: - Organise meetings/demos - Lead the meetings, make sure they're productive

We're a service company without management, "communicating status up" is a concept that doesn't exist.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#73
If there is one thing I learned it’s that “no managers” === “everyone is responsible”. That ends up as “no one is responsible”. Then chaos ensues due to no clear decision making and infighting because everyone is suddenly “boss”. As always YMMV.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#74
This guy has clearly been bitten by one type of bad manager. But let me assure you, there are many other types, and they often come from engineering backgrounds. You'll get all matter of micromanagement and communication issues that come from someone who is used to knowing all the intimate nuance of every issue. Also, even if you think they are a great manager because you have a great individual rapport, they may end up getting steam-rolled from above because they are bad at cross-functional communication or managing up, and guess who pays the price for that?

The fact of the matter is that management is its own skill, very contextual and difficult to master, and engineering experience is no silver bullet. Of all the best engineering managers I've worked with (both up, down, and lateral), only half had an engineering background. It depends on the project of course, but in general there are more important attributes than hard tech skills.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#75
post #61

I was recently a lead developer and asked to manage the team by the team. I noticed running the team can't be generalized in one size fits all, some people just want clear descriptions of projects to work and and some people want to over engineer and make a 1 day thing a 2 month job no matter how you say it should be done. Problem is how do you handle a engineer that says something can't be done in 2 hours? Well so f…

Not particularly directed at you, but it's certainly a dichotomy in that managers are the only ones responsible for "rethinking another's employment". I'm curious to know how often you would consider reflecting on / rethinking your own employment?

I say this because I was recently hired to work on a project where managers are obviously the only ones responsible for deciding how a developer should function within the organization. It is obvious the state of the project is anything but healthy at the moment. Attrition rates are astronomical and the code is beyond ugly in a lot of cases.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#76
post #46

It depends. I've worked along-side and led multiple managers and have experienced various types of managers. The good ones usually stood out. A good manager is usually the ones that shield their teams from the onslaught of clients' un-managed demands. She is the one that liaises effectively between a looming deadline and the sanity of the team. She is the one making sure the clients are making their timely payments w…

Serious question: may I ask why, in describing a plurality of good managers, you chose to use a lot of singular feminine pronouns and no plural gender-neutral pronouns; while in describing a singular (one) bad manager, you avoided the use of a pronoun altogether in one sentence; used one plural general-neutral pronoun in another; and then switched from using the pronoun you previously extensively used when describing…

Serious question: Why does it matter? The masculine singular has been used through most history and in modern times it is as acceptable to use the feminine singular as a "general case" pronoun. His specific example was obviously about an actual, specific man.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#77
post #61

I was recently a lead developer and asked to manage the team by the team. I noticed running the team can't be generalized in one size fits all, some people just want clear descriptions of projects to work and and some people want to over engineer and make a 1 day thing a 2 month job no matter how you say it should be done. Problem is how do you handle a engineer that says something can't be done in 2 hours? Well so f…

Not particularly directed at you, but it's certainly a dichotomy in that managers are the only ones responsible for "rethinking another's employment". I'm curious to know how often you would consider reflecting on / rethinking your own employment? I say this because I was recently hired to work on a project where managers are obviously the only ones responsible for deciding how a developer should function within the…

"rethinking employment" was a clever way of "firing someone who cannot take direction".

If you're suggesting a manager sometimes needs to self-reflect, sure, but a good manager does eventually have to make the call that someone isn't up to snuff.

There are several people in my department who probably should be "rethought" or let go, but management is too soft to make the call. It's actually more harmful to several, who could easily move on to other roles.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#78
I wrote 1000 words on this subject and prior spectacular failures of the "no management" style in Silicon Valley. I deleted it. No good can come of talking about it here.

Instead of an essay, I'll use a modern writing format: the pithy list.

1. This article gravely underestimates the difficulty of engineering management. One must simultaneously handle HR functions, he roadmap of their team and other teams, and their reportee's opportunities for growth and success. It's a very complex juggling act that most people are thrown into with no training, because training for the technical aspects is so bad.

2. This article's author forgets or is simply too lazy to look up previous examples of failure. Further, they're ignoring other attempts to systematize an "unmanaged" environment and what challenges people face there. It's unfortunate that they chose to pen such a long and effort-laden essay without doing sufficient research first.

3. The author of this article also seems to totally ignore the coordination and management functions required of microservice organizations. Presumably because as an engineer who specializes in delivering one single single-purpose executable on top of everyone else's microservice architectures, they may not have a ton of experience with it. Who is doing this if not engineering managers? Product managers can have some mechanical sympathy, but it's seldom their job to deeply roadmap out features.

4. This article ends suggesting that you don't need engineering managers to deeply understand the larger technical roadmap for your company and translate it to your team, but might find room for process custodians like scrum masters fix this problem? What? What even? This isn't even wrong. This is tantamount to suggesting the engineering itself doesn't even matter! It contradicts at least half of what the prior argument said.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#79
I think we can all agree that bad managers suck and managers who pretend to be technical particularly suck. However it feels the me though like we greatly underestimate the difficulty of being a technical manager and grievously under train them. Google has gone past the one-off personal experiences and studied across lots of teams and projects[1] and being a technical expert wasn't even close to the most important trait. I'd like to see us spend less time proposing "no managers" as current ones aren't good and more time on figuring out how to make them good and give them training and support they need. Most of the ones I know want to be successful and are trying in their own imperfect way. If you think the most important thing is technical prowess just take a look at any academic CS department, run only by super technical professors it is often a case study in anti-patterns.

From Google's study on managers reported in nytimes[2]

  “In the Google context, we’d always believed that to be a   manager, 
  particularly on the engineering side, you need to be as deep or deeper 
  a technical expert than the people who work for you,” Mr. Bock says. 
  “It turns out that that’s absolutely the least important thing. 
  It’s important, but pales in comparison. Much more important is just making 
  that connection and being accessible.”
[1] https://rework.withgoogle.com/subjects/managers/

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/13/business/13hire.html?smid=...

edit for formatting

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#80

Something I have wanted to ask the HN community, that this article brings up: what exactly does a scrum master do? From what I have observed at one business, there is one scrum master on every team. Many of them know nothing about the business that business does, and have no technical background. I have seen developers spend sometimes an hour or more a day explaining to scrum masters what they just built, so that the…

In my company, each team has a scrum master (a SM being part of 2/3 teams). They have near-zero technical knowledge, and this is what they do (no particular order): - Give an organisation to the team, and make sure that this organisation does not decay with time - Help the devs work faster by helping them with the methodology - Help identifying & solving problems (a problem goes from "a dev spent one hour more than e…

> This is probably the most important task - Help the client to lead his project

For someone to do this, they would have to have client communication skills, at least somewhat thorough understanding of software development or the process, and an understanding of the client's business. I see this as a good thing. However, your example sounds to be a company that has external clients that you write software for. Do you not have account managers/principle types who interact with the clients, or is that more or less what a scrum master does there? Just curious, if you were an internal only dev shop that just develops software for stakeholders at your own company, would you see the role of a scrum master as significantly different?

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