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Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

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Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#31

Post by Brajeshwar »

Arwill wrote: post #18
Brajeshwar wrote: post #10

It depends. I've worked along-side and led multiple managers and have experienced various types of managers. The good ones usually stood out. A good manager is usually the ones that shield their teams from the onslaught of clients' un-managed demands. She is the one that liaises effectively between a looming deadline and the sanity of the team. She is the one making sure the clients are making their timely payments w…

>have empathy and have more of people skill than technical or design skills The problematic ones i've seen had some people skills, or they were thinking they had. The problem was when they did not understand engineering problems, and were thinking that everything was a people problem/issue. So they either assume that the developers are lazy, or they simply can't accept that the engineer can have some real objective c…

Experienced managers do have an idea of engineering problems because they have seen it before - seen it happen, seen it solved, et al. A manager that does not appreciate engineering problems either just graduated from a management course or is someone who never got involved deeply with a team.

A manager has to answer to multiple people — clients, upper management, stakeholders, Jira. Unfortunately, she is totally dependent on this teams to get things done. She is utterly handicapped when it comes to doing anything useful, read, "engineering". Which is when most managers break and shows their character — they either break, blames people, do not listen, do not understand or they figure out who can help, seek help and find the right person to get things done.

Well, engineers, sometimes get it easy — they just have to solve a problem and make 2+2 = 4. They answer to one person; perhaps the manager. Think of the manager and to whom she is reporting and taking the fall. If the team does not get things done, they're the ones usually blamed.

In the early days of my career, I used to think that managers, middle managers are pretty useless. Now, I believe everyone has their roles to play a part in the whole machinery of 'the cogwheel'.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#32

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

Stop calling it engineering...engineering is a degree that requires an incredibly rigorous formal training and education. Call it what it really is, there's no shame in the word developer or programmer, wear it with pride, but don't just appropriate words, it is beneath you.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#33

Post by manyxcxi »

This sounds like the rantings of someone who has had some pretty bad managers and has never managed anyone else.

My schooling was Computer Engineering, my career started as a Software Engineer and has wound all the way up to Director level. I’ve been on both sides of this equation for a long time.

Your typical “just a manager” has to spin so many plates and babysit so many people that most real “engineer types” would loathe the job and frankly, not be very good at it. I struggled mightily as a team manager where there were a lot of competing priorities, personal issues, and directions that I needed to follow. As I got higher up the chain of command the job got easier, I had less direction I had to conform to, I was thinking architecturally and in longer terms– and I didn’t have daily interpersonal drama to deal with.

Management isn’t for everyone, engineer or not. It’s a lot like parenting: Most people are just making it up as they go, trying their best, and the best ones generally put others before themselves.

Put the idea that Engineers should be these lone wolf rockstars that just to get to do what they want, regardless of corporate objectives or market positioning is ludicrous.

As an engineer, I can confirm that we’re just as short sighted and dismissive of other people’s work as they are to us.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#34

Post by quadcore »

I've thought about that a lot and my conclusions weren't what I expected as a programmer.

The issue is that, someone has to talk to the internal customer [0].

Now if a programmer do the talking with the internal customer, then I believe, he will naturally become some sort of a surgeon ala Mythical Man-Month [1].

Mills proposes that each segment of a large job be tackled a team, but that the team be organized like a surgical team rather than a hog-butchering team. That is, instead of each member cutting away on the problem, one does the cutting and the others give him every support that will enhance his effectiveness and productivity.

Problem is, I believe the surgeon method cant work in practice for 2 reasons, 1) programmers dont want someone who tell them how to code, 2) even if people would want a surgeon, since the surgeon both need to be a great programmer and a great politician because he will naturally speak to the internal customer (because eh, hes the surgeon), hiring for that position becomes difficult - and you'll end up generally with a great politician that sucks at programming, which makes (1) even more pronounced.

The only way you can get rid of the project manager is to make the team the internal customer. That's the case at Valve [2] I believe.

In the mean time, the best thing to do is to work with project managers who were engineers before.

[0] I know what you think: a project manager isn't only talking to the internal customers. Yes, that's correct but the rest of his job is similar the one of a secretary. Nothing that would put guy on top.

[1] https://ia801903.us.archive.org/19/items/mythicalmanmonth00f...

[2] http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.p...

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#35

Post by behindmyscreen »

I think there is value of management in all cases wrt processing corporate beurocratic paperwork and even for resource allocation of staff to initiatives.

You get into trouble with non-SME managers that start directing the way people solve a problem or prioritize what work gets done.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#36

Post by y2hhcmxlcw »

Something I have wanted to ask the HN community, that this article brings up: what exactly does a scrum master do?

From what I have observed at one business, there is one scrum master on every team. Many of them know nothing about the business that business does, and have no technical background. I have seen developers spend sometimes an hour or more a day explaining to scrum masters what they just built, so that they can then go "communicate that up" to upper management or project management in opaque meetings developers aren't allowed to attend.

But what I can't figure out, is what they are actually supposed to do. At best, I see two points: 1. They do the traditional work of a project manager but on a team level, and communicate status up. 2. They are supposed to be some kind of "thought leader" on agile methodologies.

Can HN help shed some light on what this role should do? Perhaps my background has just been a bad experience in this regard. I suppose where I get stuck is, this seems to be the work that a dev lead used to do. Why make a full time job for a non-technical person to lead a technical team, below the management level?

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#37

Post by derwiki »

y2hhcmxlcw wrote: post #36

Something I have wanted to ask the HN community, that this article brings up: what exactly does a scrum master do? From what I have observed at one business, there is one scrum master on every team. Many of them know nothing about the business that business does, and have no technical background. I have seen developers spend sometimes an hour or more a day explaining to scrum masters what they just built, so that the…

I've never had a scrum master across 7-8 companies. Usually it was a rotating role, or a manager/tech lead. But certainly not one person dedicated to it.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#38

Post by euroclydon »

dominotw wrote: post #28
sidlls wrote: post #2

I tend to agree that managers of engineers should have engineering experience. I think my reasons would differ from those of the author and many other engineers: it's much less charitable toward engineers. One of the best reasons to select managers who have been engineers, in my opinion, is because they know how much bullshit engineers engage in with respect to fad chasing, bikeshedding and other negative practices.…

> I tend to agree that managers of engineers should have engineering experience. What about managers who have had experience like a decade ago and don't do much tech experience anymore. I am stuck in such management chain at work where some guy up top thinks he is technical enough to dictate solutions based on couple conference youtube videos that he watches. Half knowledge and false sense of technical prowess is mor…

A manager should not be dictating architecture unless it’s some really small operation, and even then, it’s dicey. Rather, anyone who is capable of writing up a white paper that describes the problem, solution and rational for the choices should be able to propose a solution, and then have a meeting to discuss and decide whether to move forward.

A manager should have the big picture and communicate it to the team. Then you could avoid a team member wasting time on something that’s not in the greater objectives or roadmap.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#39

Post by aviolette »

You need experienced managers as the size of an organization grows. For development teams you need an engineering manager to work with product to design stories, orchestrate work with other teams, and to provide technical mentorship.

The author conflates "all managers" with "project managers." and implies this is some artifact of the hegemony. My experience with project managers is that they are largely an artifact of waterfall-style software development and are not as necessary today in agile environments. But they can be helpful in the orchestration of large-scale projects.

I've personally never been in a situation (I've worked in software development for over 25 years) where we were hiring an engineering manager, and hired a "business type" instead. I'm hiring a development manager now, and the first step in that process is a coding interview. They cannot go further unless they pass that.

This whole article reads more like an us-vs-them rant than anything else.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#40

Post by cs02rm0 »

derwiki wrote: post #37
y2hhcmxlcw wrote: post #36

Something I have wanted to ask the HN community, that this article brings up: what exactly does a scrum master do? From what I have observed at one business, there is one scrum master on every team. Many of them know nothing about the business that business does, and have no technical background. I have seen developers spend sometimes an hour or more a day explaining to scrum masters what they just built, so that the…

I've never had a scrum master across 7-8 companies. Usually it was a rotating role, or a manager/tech lead. But certainly not one person dedicated to it.

Yeah, it's supposed to be a role for a dev to play for 10 minutes a day.

Unfortunately I've seen people with it as a job title. They were the absolute joke you'd expect.

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