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Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

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Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#21

Post by marcinzm »

mcphage wrote: post #4

> It’s better to have no management than unqualified management. If you’ve ever been on a project with more than 1 or 2 people without a manager—or where the manager doesn’t do their job—you would know how insane this sounds. It does not work. Once you’re coordinating groups of people you need a manager to keep them working together towards a common goal.

>Once you’re coordinating groups of people you need a manager to keep them working together towards a common goal.

No, you need someone to coordinate them. It does not need to be your manager. Plenty of matrix and matrix like organizations which have split the two.

Managers just need to enforce who that person is and resolve people (not product or business) disputes.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#22

Post by jackhack »

sidlls wrote: post #2

I tend to agree that managers of engineers should have engineering experience. I think my reasons would differ from those of the author and many other engineers: it's much less charitable toward engineers. One of the best reasons to select managers who have been engineers, in my opinion, is because they know how much bullshit engineers engage in with respect to fad chasing, bikeshedding and other negative practices.…

Yes, 100% agree!

I've seen such a thing, taken to an extreme where lazy, underskilled developers were running the show; overcomplicating, underdelivering, yet showered with praise -- and it's horrible to witness. A word of warning for anyone entering such a world: you will not change this environment and any attempts to do so will trigger an immune system response. The developers and clueless managers will circle the wagons in defense of the existing culture.

Lesson learned: don't interfere with "resume-driven development" organizations.

I suggest the following interview question: "Tell me about the technical capability of your management chain."

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#23

Post by hliyan »

saas_co_de wrote: post #13

My experience is the opposite: I find that managers who are not from a software engineering background are generally better. In my experience managers from a software engineering background are usually lower skilled engineers who tend to overrate their own skill level and make bad technical decisions where a non-engineer manager would defer to the expert opinion of the people they manage.

I've had similar experiences -- a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Both non-technical managers and technical managers who entered management after reaching the top of the technical ladder, are better than semi-technical managers.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#24

Post by the-pigeon »

derrekl wrote: post #14

I often institute a “just” $1 jar. Anytime “why don’t we just” or “it’s just” is uttered you have to put a dollar into the jar. This applies to engineers, managers, myself, everyone. The idea is breaking the habit of trivializing work that isn’t. Something like a dollar jar is fairly effective as a notifier but doesn’t necessarily replace the habit with a better one. Nevertheless the game itself seems to help even if…

Hmm isn't that just like a swear jar? You don't get rid of the swears or the trivializing but rather you just replace the particular words being used for the trivializing.

So what's the benefit?

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#26

Post by [deleted] »

Arwill wrote: post #18
Brajeshwar wrote: post #10

It depends. I've worked along-side and led multiple managers and have experienced various types of managers. The good ones usually stood out. A good manager is usually the ones that shield their teams from the onslaught of clients' un-managed demands. She is the one that liaises effectively between a looming deadline and the sanity of the team. She is the one making sure the clients are making their timely payments w…

>have empathy and have more of people skill than technical or design skills The problematic ones i've seen had some people skills, or they were thinking they had. The problem was when they did not understand engineering problems, and were thinking that everything was a people problem/issue. So they either assume that the developers are lazy, or they simply can't accept that the engineer can have some real objective c…

[deleted]

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#27

Post by the-pigeon »

TomMarius wrote: post #5
mcphage wrote: post #4

> It’s better to have no management than unqualified management. If you’ve ever been on a project with more than 1 or 2 people without a manager—or where the manager doesn’t do their job—you would know how insane this sounds. It does not work. Once you’re coordinating groups of people you need a manager to keep them working together towards a common goal.

That's not true in general, I've been in environments where a team of 10+ very motivated individuals worked together without a manager. It's not common though.

But you still have people doing the job of a manager.

Someone has to set meetings, someone has to call out issues, someone has to communicate with upper management and other teams.

No-manager really means distributed management or an informal manager. Because the essential work a manager does has to be done by someone.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#28

Post by dominotw »

sidlls wrote: post #2

I tend to agree that managers of engineers should have engineering experience. I think my reasons would differ from those of the author and many other engineers: it's much less charitable toward engineers. One of the best reasons to select managers who have been engineers, in my opinion, is because they know how much bullshit engineers engage in with respect to fad chasing, bikeshedding and other negative practices.…

> I tend to agree that managers of engineers should have engineering experience.

What about managers who have had experience like a decade ago and don't do much tech experience anymore.

I am stuck in such management chain at work where some guy up top thinks he is technical enough to dictate solutions based on couple conference youtube videos that he watches.

Half knowledge and false sense of technical prowess is more dangerous imo.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#29

Post by tyingq »

humanrebar wrote: post #19
tyingq wrote: post #9

Sounds like someone that hasn't ever had a good manager. A leader that can provide good air cover is a serious benefit in a large company. That ability has little to do with whether they have engineering experience or not.

There is value in keeping negative attention away. There is also value in attracting attention to technical needs. If you need someone in another part of the org to do something technical to make your life easier (or even unblock the project), it's difficult to get the job done without a technical manager. You can usually get the job done with a non-technical manager who can listen and delegate well to a good technic…

My experience is that a good non-technical manager will develop a relationship with a member of their team that fills that gap. Most of the "good" manangers I've worked for were good because of their soft skills.

Re: Let’s have no managers, instead of managers with no engineering experience

#30

Post by dominotw »

saas_co_de wrote: post #13

My experience is the opposite: I find that managers who are not from a software engineering background are generally better. In my experience managers from a software engineering background are usually lower skilled engineers who tend to overrate their own skill level and make bad technical decisions where a non-engineer manager would defer to the expert opinion of the people they manage.

This spot on. I would take a manager who knows how to get best tech decisions out of their engineers.
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