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Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

reuters.com

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Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#81

Post by dis-sys »

elefanten wrote: post #46
supergirl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans can easily use services hosted outside the US. Chinese users cannot easily use services hosted outside China. Services hosted outside the US by companies with presence in the US fall under Patriot Act which means US can spy on them any time without warrant, but ianal. Even if the company has no presence in the US, there are only a handful of countries that would not bend over to hand data to US. That's wh…

Ok but you're still ignoring the basic fact that activists and even criminals in liberal democracies have legal and human rights. In China, you have no guarantees and no recourse. Torture, forced confession and retaliation against your family are all on the table. That's why no one worries about US activists the same way they do about Chinese ones.

> Ok but you're still ignoring the basic fact that activists and even criminals in liberal democracies have legal and human rights.

Such as moving those criminals and activists to Guantánamo Bay? Oh, Obama trolled to shut it down almost a decade ago after acknowledging its wide spread human right violations, why it is still in operation in the same shape and form? You are free to troll whatever you like, that is not going to change the fact that Guantánamo Bay is still being used for violating basic human rights.

liberal democracies? think about Guantánamo Bay.

Please stop spread your highly misleading non-sense. Let's don't even go down the paths of those weekly mass shootings in the US, when the constitution is basically denying their rights to live and the far right elements are calling for teachers to be armed on campus, what you can expect?

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#82

Post by cromwellian »

tonylinn80 wrote: post #59
rqs wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns" Does this mean anything? You also breathe polluted air like "most people", do you want new fresh air then? The reason of "__INSERT ACTION HERE__ won't practically have any impact on 'privacy' or 'human rights concerns'" is becaus…

Whichever way, it doesn't matter that much. At least where Apple wants to put their server makes no difference. It's not that we are "unaware" of anything, we just don't feel the same way about privacy (and many other western values as well). Not that they're bad, we just don't believe they're so important. Sure you think you "know the importance of privacy", but that's rather just an opinion, not a fact. In fact, an…

You'll feel different the first time the "social credit" system ends up denying you a loan because of something you said in a private message.

Or you'd feel real different if you were a Uighur who lived in Xinjiang.

Right now, thanks to a growing economy, no one cares about rocking the boat, or what the government does. That will all change when China experiences its first deep recession, and like the US, the government will have no choice but to stoke dangerous levels of nationalism to deflect anger away from it, while ratcheting up the amount of control it has.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#83

Post by cromwellian »

tonylinn80 wrote: post #34

Well, I do live in China and I don't see anyone feeling any fear about this... Seriously, you can easily turn off keychain if you don't trust a cloud service to store all your passwords. And if i decide to use such a service, I'd certainly trust a local company much more than Apple or anything of US origin.

Have you ever been to Xinjiang? A Uighur friend of mine is a tour guide there and he has to communicate with foreigners via email. He specifically uses foreign hosted mail and continually deletes his email and local cache and is paranoid about it.

You won't care about privacy until you've been on the receiving end of government interference in your life.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#84

Post by tluyben2 »

r00fus wrote: post #66
ballenf wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that Apple recently removed the ability to buy apps from iTunes, I think the writings's on the wall for the ability to locally backup iOS devices. Which is a huge shame. My guess is they're waiting for more complete coverage in terms of iCloud functionality and maybe security. But Apple has been known to pull the plug on "pro" functionality like this and/or remove functionality before the replacement was quite…

What was the use case for buying apps on iTunes as opposed to any one of your iOS devices?

Legacy maybe? You could only buy from iTunes in the beginning.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#85

Post by seanmcdirmid »

dis-sys wrote: post #79
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not according to the forbes article, but that is indicating sales in quarter rather than overall marketshare (Apple sold more phones than Xiaomi in Q4 17, see https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/25/chinas-smartphone-market-i... ). Apple is not doing poorly in China by any economic measure, but ya they don't sell many $200 Xiaomi/Huawei phones. I'm sure that Apple wins consistently based on phone sales revenue, even if the…

it depends on your definition of market share - whether it is quarterly shipment or % of phones on carrier networks. apple devices are a few times more expensive than say Xiaomi, they thus stay in people's pocket for much longer. for shipment data, Apple's figure is not that fancy any more, they count for only 8% of the shipment in Q2 2017. http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-and-samsung-are-losing-...

It does fall and rise on any quarter given apple’s predictable release schedule. Still, 20% sustained marketshare for China at the price they are selling compared to local competitors is quite the feat.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#86

Post by tinus_hn »

abalone wrote: post #8

To Apple's credit there are still significant parts of their platform that remain end-to-end encrypted even in China -- meaning that Apple or any other cloud operator can't read because they don't have the keys, notably:[1] - iMessage - Keychain - Siri data And more like health, home & payments. While it's unfortunate that Apple couldn't compel China to run their government requests for data through the U.S. court sy…

Siri runs server side, I can’t see how that could work without the keys to its data

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#87

Post by dis-sys »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85
dis-sys wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it depends on your definition of market share - whether it is quarterly shipment or % of phones on carrier networks. apple devices are a few times more expensive than say Xiaomi, they thus stay in people's pocket for much longer. for shipment data, Apple's figure is not that fancy any more, they count for only 8% of the shipment in Q2 2017. http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-and-samsung-are-losing-...

It does fall and rise on any quarter given apple’s predictable release schedule. Still, 20% sustained marketshare for China at the price they are selling compared to local competitors is quite the feat.

Apple shipped 18% of phones worldwide, but when it comes to the Chinese market, it counts only 8%. You need a lots of explanations if you refuse to acknowledge the obvious here.

https://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/3859963

Before start to waste your time, the 8% shipment in China figure was >14% just 24 months ago.

https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/11/8584277/smartphone-shipme...

To give you some extra details - I live in downtown Shanghai, as of writing, several months after IPhone X's release, I have not even seen the IPhone X yet as not any single one of my families, friends or colleagues has switched to that.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#88

Post by ksec »

echevil wrote: post #25

Speaking as a Chinese citizen, I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns", at least to vast majority of the population. I really appreciate that Apple is finally moving their servers to China as downloading apps and updates from App Store has been painfully slow. iPhone has…

Similar finding here. Lost quite some market shares is what we "felt" was happening around out circles, although the stats usually tells a slightly different story. Especially when you are suppose to be using Chinese Brand if you are in business and have any relationship to political circles.

And may be given a lot of these phones are likely being used to do App Store Reviews, ranks, Gaming levels, etc. May be that is why we see them less around us but sales figure tells a different story.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#89

Post by ksec »

dis-sys wrote: post #87
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does fall and rise on any quarter given apple’s predictable release schedule. Still, 20% sustained marketshare for China at the price they are selling compared to local competitors is quite the feat.

Apple shipped 18% of phones worldwide, but when it comes to the Chinese market, it counts only 8%. You need a lots of explanations if you refuse to acknowledge the obvious here. https://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/3859963 Before start to waste your time, the 8% shipment in China figure was >14% just 24 months ago. https://www.theverge.com/2015/5/11/8584277/smartphone-shipme... To give you some extra details - I live…

That is why i wasn't very optimistic in iPhone X China figures. I dont see them around in China much as well. And the craze was no where near my expectation, and nothing compared to iPhone 6. But the sales figure was very different when announced.

You are not the only one with this observation as well. Most of my friends and colleagues in different area of China had the same observation as well. I wonder why.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#90

Post by supergirl »

elefanten wrote: post #46
supergirl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans can easily use services hosted outside the US. Chinese users cannot easily use services hosted outside China. Services hosted outside the US by companies with presence in the US fall under Patriot Act which means US can spy on them any time without warrant, but ianal. Even if the company has no presence in the US, there are only a handful of countries that would not bend over to hand data to US. That's wh…

Ok but you're still ignoring the basic fact that activists and even criminals in liberal democracies have legal and human rights. In China, you have no guarantees and no recourse. Torture, forced confession and retaliation against your family are all on the table. That's why no one worries about US activists the same way they do about Chinese ones.

ye, Assange is enjoying his human rights as we speak
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