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Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

reuters.com

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Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#51

Post by jzoch »

ztjio wrote: post #45
mtgx wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To Apple's non -credit, it's still tying iMessage backups to iCloud backups despite years of criticism over this. That means everyone who uses iCloud backups (enabled by default on iPhones) don't actually benefit from iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with). I'd say people may as well forget about Apple's "privacy stance". It's n…

So don't use iCloud backups. You're never required to. You can trivially back up through iTunes, even automatically via Wi-Fi assuming you have them on the same network regularly. Anyone concerned about privacy, the first thing they should be ensuring is they are NOT using iCloud backup.

You're correct, though its Apple's MO to supply security in an intuitive manner. IF you tout all these parts of your platform as secure and have one insecure piece that interfaces with it then it isnt a secure platform. The onus should be on Apple to secure iCloud. To their credit, I think they know that and will be. Those who are knowledgeable and care about security will continue to stay ahead of those who aren't, but Apple is making the division smaller.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#52

Post by saagarjha »

ec109685 wrote: post #43
saagarjha wrote: post #41

I’m disappointed that all this hoopla was completely avoidable: all Apple would have to do is end-to-end encrypt everything , and this wouldn’t even be an issue: they’d be no keys to hand over. Instead, by keeping the keys, they’ve basically opened themselves up to requests like these that they really have no choice but to abide by.

If they did not, perhaps China would ban iCloud (similar to WhatsApp and google’s services).

iMessage is end-to-end encrypted and not banned, IIRC.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#53

Post by rqs »

echevil wrote: post #25

Speaking as a Chinese citizen, I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns", at least to vast majority of the population. I really appreciate that Apple is finally moving their servers to China as downloading apps and updates from App Store has been painfully slow. iPhone has…

> I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns"

Does this mean anything? You also breathe polluted air like "most people", do you want new fresh air then?

The reason of "__INSERT ACTION HERE__ won't practically have any impact on 'privacy' or 'human rights concerns'" is because "most people" unaware the importance of their privacy, NOT because their privacy is not important.

So, their is a choice to make: To make people understand the importance of their privacy; OR, continue selling this unawareness (to make people ignorant). Which way you go?

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#56

Post by snuxoll »

vengefulduck wrote: post #26
abalone wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with) Could you support this claim please? Re: iCloud backups you're correct. So far. They're about to release iMessages-in-iCloud though, which might obviate the need to include them in iCloud backups.

iMessage uses short RSA 1280-bit keys which could be cracked by a well funded attacker. [1] https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf

1280-bit keys are still mostly sufficient for now, this isn’t a website where every party is relying on the key of the server being heavily resistant to protects millions of users - every device has a unique key.

Still, you are correct that a determined adversary, potentially one capable of purchasing a quantum computer with enough quibits could factor the device key. It would be nice to see Apple move to a large enough ECC key which would improve security against quantum computing attacks in particular.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#57

Post by echevil »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47
echevil wrote: post #25

Speaking as a Chinese citizen, I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns", at least to vast majority of the population. I really appreciate that Apple is finally moving their servers to China as downloading apps and updates from App Store has been painfully slow. iPhone has…

As of December 2017, iOS had around 19.7% of China's mobile web browsing market. That is unexpectedly huge, is there a large enough middle class to support that many iPhones? https://www.statista.com/statistics/262176/market-share-held... Sales in China have been expanding, though it goes up and down with new iPhone releases: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/01/13/apples-ne... Samsung has absolutely gotte…

It’s not killed for sure, but it used to have bigger market share

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#58

Post by seanmcdirmid »

echevil wrote: post #57
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As of December 2017, iOS had around 19.7% of China's mobile web browsing market. That is unexpectedly huge, is there a large enough middle class to support that many iPhones? https://www.statista.com/statistics/262176/market-share-held... Sales in China have been expanding, though it goes up and down with new iPhone releases: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chuckjones/2018/01/13/apples-ne... Samsung has absolutely gotte…

It’s not killed for sure, but it used to have bigger market share

Not according to the forbes article, but that is indicating sales in quarter rather than overall marketshare (Apple sold more phones than Xiaomi in Q4 17, see https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/25/chinas-smartphone-market-i...).

Apple is not doing poorly in China by any economic measure, but ya they don't sell many $200 Xiaomi/Huawei phones. I'm sure that Apple wins consistently based on phone sales revenue, even if they trail in total units sold.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#59

Post by tonylinn80 »

rqs wrote: post #53
echevil wrote: post #25

Speaking as a Chinese citizen, I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns", at least to vast majority of the population. I really appreciate that Apple is finally moving their servers to China as downloading apps and updates from App Store has been painfully slow. iPhone has…

> I'd say most people already use local apps/services for almost everything, so having Apple moving servers to China won't practically have any impact on "privacy" or "human rights concerns" Does this mean anything? You also breathe polluted air like "most people", do you want new fresh air then? The reason of "__INSERT ACTION HERE__ won't practically have any impact on 'privacy' or 'human rights concerns'" is becaus…

Whichever way, it doesn't matter that much. At least where Apple wants to put their server makes no difference.

It's not that we are "unaware" of anything, we just don't feel the same way about privacy (and many other western values as well). Not that they're bad, we just don't believe they're so important. Sure you think you "know the importance of privacy", but that's rather just an opinion, not a fact.

In fact, another apparent trend in China is that people who have been studying and living in US for some time tends to become more agreeable with Chinese government afterwards.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#60

Post by tonylinn80 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58
echevil wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not killed for sure, but it used to have bigger market share

Not according to the forbes article, but that is indicating sales in quarter rather than overall marketshare (Apple sold more phones than Xiaomi in Q4 17, see https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/25/chinas-smartphone-market-i... ). Apple is not doing poorly in China by any economic measure, but ya they don't sell many $200 Xiaomi/Huawei phones. I'm sure that Apple wins consistently based on phone sales revenue, even if the…

Apple got some good number with iPhoneX launch it seems, after several years' of decline in market share. They're no where close to getting killed though.

The fact it's moving servers to China is most likely going to have positive effect on their sales, not negative.

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