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Doctors, Revolt

nytimes.com

21–30 of 178 posts

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#21
Let's be careful about nostalgia for the "good old days" of medical practice. Keep in mind that standardizing medical care process has done more to get physicians to WASH THEIR HANDS than all kinds of exhortations about relationships, partnerships, and healing. And washing hands has, since Semmelweis's discoveries 150 years ago, been known as the easiest way to promote healing that medical people don't do.

Why do the overnight shift of nurses take vital signs every four hours? So they catch rapid unexpected changes in patient conditions more quickly. Put more crudely, so they don't accidentally leave a corpse in a bed for the next shift. Having to write, or type, the patient's blood pressure into a log is a way to help the overnight nursing shift remember to pay detailed attention to each patient, at least for a few moments. If their instructions were "stop at each door and listen for the patient breathing" those nurses might well miss important changes.

Hospital care these days is not only about the towering figure of the heroic superhuman doctor, Harvard Medical School lore to the contrary notwithstanding. It's about all the folks who look after patients, from the community primary care doctor to the RN, to the chaplain, to the "hospitalist" physician, to the person who cleans up, to the person who maintains all the electronic gear. The challenge is getting all these people to cooperate with the patient and for the patient's benefit.

The superhuman healer approach to medicine demands superhuman people to be doctors. They aren't, any more than the rest of us are. They have to sleep, and to eat, and to see many patients. So, a good hospital needs to be organized like a good company: where each person's skills and passion complement the others, and gets an extraordinary result from a collection of ordinary people. The buzzword for that is "synergy." Good discipline--good and predictable process--is part of synergy.

And, at the end of all that excellent care on our behalf, each and every one of us will become a corpse. A nineteen-year-old with a broken leg can be cured. A 90-year-old with cancer and pneumonia, not so much. It doesn't matter how towering a figure the doctor is, or how kind the nurse is.

A radical move in medicine would be to come to terms with death as a natural part of life rather than as a failure of the system.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#22
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Friend's mother was recently in hospital, multiple doctors thru a single day, each one had to completely relearn what was going on. What's the alternative? 24 hour shifts for the doctor and the new doctor each day needs to relearn everything? Having to relearn everything might be a problem, depending on what it actually means, but as long as we want a normal human being as a doctor, they will cycle over time as peo…

The doctors individually spending 5 quiet minutes reviewing the case files of the patients they were about to treat BEFORE they arrived. That's not modern reality and its shameful.

This was the desired behavior. Its not that they reviewed existing info to check for changes, its that they knew nothing. Like the last 30 minutes of questions and chart didn't exist. On the side of the patient, this does not inspire confidence. It projects a sense of confusion and disorganization.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#23
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Friend's mother was recently in hospital, multiple doctors thru a single day, each one had to completely relearn what was going on. What's the alternative? 24 hour shifts for the doctor and the new doctor each day needs to relearn everything? Having to relearn everything might be a problem, depending on what it actually means, but as long as we want a normal human being as a doctor, they will cycle over time as peo…

Part of this can be solved by having better care managers associated with each patient (primary care doctors), who can share relevant information with different parties. Works mainly for chronic care. In the case of acute cases, information needs to be readily accessible in a format that is interpretable by doctors when they go through the process of assessing differential diagnoses. That information is not captured…

I don't really understand is this concern about having to "relearn" everything when doctors change shifts, because that's not how it works. Maybe that's how patients perceive it, but generally before each shift ends, in order to be relieved of your shift, you have to sign your patients out. This is basically an hour long phone call with the next doctor, where you tell them everything that happened for all their patients.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#24
post #7

Going to a doctor in America, for whatever reason, the first thing that happens is that a nurse comes and takes your blood pressure. I wonder why? Never happened to me in Europe.

They did that for me in Germany too. EU insurance.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#25
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The doctors individually spending 5 quiet minutes reviewing the case files of the patients they were about to treat BEFORE they arrived. That's not modern reality and its shameful.

This was the desired behavior. Its not that they reviewed existing info to check for changes, its that they knew nothing. Like the last 30 minutes of questions and chart didn't exist. On the side of the patient, this does not inspire confidence. It projects a sense of confusion and disorganization.

Twenty years ago when I did tech support for a living, I had a series of questions worded in very specific ways I would ask at the start of a call. Sometimes the content of the answer was the useful part of the response, sometimes how the answer was said.

More often than not, if I got someone on the other line that seemed to know a bit, skipping the questions ended up being counterproductive, as I would assume some knowledge about a specific item from the other end that didn't exist (but other knowledge did). I learned to trust the process, and glean the extra bits of information that weren't what the other side was trying to convey, but did nonetheless.

I think it's a mistake to assume that just because the doctor asks you questions and doesn't always seem to take into account a prior answer the doctor is not listing. I think it's more likely that they have learned that the small percentage of time that asking similar questions in different ways has led to new, important information has led them to be careful and methodical, even at the expense of patients thinking they aren't listening.

When faced with a choice of behaving in a way making you think they care, or behaving in a way that makes you think they don't but actually provides better care and outcomes, what would you prefer? I think we need to be careful about jumping from "this is what it looks like" to "this is what's going on" without evidence clearly pointing to one over that other.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#26
post #13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Friend's mother was recently in hospital, multiple doctors thru a single day, each one had to completely relearn what was going on. What's the alternative? 24 hour shifts for the doctor and the new doctor each day needs to relearn everything? Having to relearn everything might be a problem, depending on what it actually means, but as long as we want a normal human being as a doctor, they will cycle over time as peo…

In addition to this, many doctors want to re-take the history from the patients and re-examine them for themselves, rather than rely on a brief handover or potentially sub-optimal notes from another doctor. Clinical signs can be subtle, as can points in a patient's history that may point to a diagnosis. I see patients often frustrated at being asked the same questions by each doctor they see, but most of the time thi…

I try to preempt the frustration by saying that we each take our own history for the purpose of making sure no details are missed, but rest assured, I’ve gotten the overview from your other docs. I then make sure to complete a sentence for them once in a while, to evidence that that is the case.

A good percentage still get frustrated. Can’t be helped. Patients reshape their narrative, remember new details, just plain open up more to some docs, etc. the repeated history taking really pays off in improving patient care.

Where I find patients get most frustrated is when docs come in for a specific job, and patients don’t have the health literacy to understand what that is or is not. “Doc, can I go home today?”

  “ I’m just the consulting cardio here to check out your heart for your primary doc, Doc McStuffins, I have no say in that at all, you need to ask McStuffins.”  
“Oh. But when do you think I can go home?”

There’s no good response to that. No one wants to cough up cash to pay for health professionals time to repeat themselves all day long. But the patient that’s asking? They want that answer. They don’t -feel- like they’re asking an inappropriate or stupid question.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#27
post #7

Going to a doctor in America, for whatever reason, the first thing that happens is that a nurse comes and takes your blood pressure. I wonder why? Never happened to me in Europe.

If it’s medical and consistent, must be Billing and liability.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#28
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The doctors individually spending 5 quiet minutes reviewing the case files of the patients they were about to treat BEFORE they arrived. That's not modern reality and its shameful.

This was the desired behavior. Its not that they reviewed existing info to check for changes, its that they knew nothing. Like the last 30 minutes of questions and chart didn't exist. On the side of the patient, this does not inspire confidence. It projects a sense of confusion and disorganization.

> its that they knew nothing

That does sound rather concerning if that's the case!

As a medical student about to sit my final exams, I have shadowed hundreds of doctors of different grades and specialties in many different hospitals and family practices, and I don't recall ever seeing a doctor not review the notes before seeing a patient. Often here in the UK at least there is a large amount of time pressure and it would certainly be desirable to have more time to review further back, in more detail, etc. but given in general practice there is a 10 minute slot per patient, there are systemic limits on this (that would be nice to address).

On the other side, trying to figure out what is going on with patients is much more complex than catching up on notes and trying to get a "delta" update from them about what has changed in the shortest space of time/words as possible. The number of times I have taken a history from a patient and then less than half an hour later observed them add hugely important extra details that were omitted previously is pretty large. Often, it is far more helpful and illuminating to ask a patient to tell you what has been going on in their own words, even if you think you have read it all in the notes. I have often seen more senior clinicians pick up subtle clues that were missed by more junior clinicians, or ask a pertinent question that was not asked before.

And finally, on a more pragmatic basis, doctors take a lot of risk on board whenever they treat a patient. Patient's get tired of people asking them if they have any allergies for example, but when it's your name on the prescription, and your ability to sleep and your license on the line, you may well decide to ask the patient again rather than rely on what some previous clinician in some previous setting has written down on the patient's file. In a similar vein, a lot of practice is not black and white. If a junior with limited experience writes that a particular clinical sign is positive in the notes, you may well want to repeat that examination to re-assure yourself before you allow it to guide your treatment.

None of this is excusing unpreparedness or poor practice, but hopefully shines a little light on some reasons why it seems like there is so much needless repetition.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#29
post #6

Health care and education are IMO the next two major car wrecks coming for America. Both are like patients with similar symptoms (indicative of the general disease of America.) - They treat the customers like replaceable widgets - Costs are spiraling out of control. ($2-3000/day hospital, $3.4 TRILLION in total health spending [this equals the entire federal budget]) - Doctors / teachers often don't seem to communica…

An awful lot of hospitals are organized as non profits. Same with insurance.

Spending goes up because a majority of politically engaged people have good access to care that they don't directly see the cost of.

Re: Doctors, Revolt

#30
post #6

Health care and education are IMO the next two major car wrecks coming for America. Both are like patients with similar symptoms (indicative of the general disease of America.) - They treat the customers like replaceable widgets - Costs are spiraling out of control. ($2-3000/day hospital, $3.4 TRILLION in total health spending [this equals the entire federal budget]) - Doctors / teachers often don't seem to communica…

> Doctors / teachers often don't seem to communicate / care.

You really don't have much contact with teachers if you believe this.

The education system runs in spite of its systemic horribleness precisely because there are enough teachers who do care and fight/ignore the system when necessary.

If you want to actually fix the educational system, we have models for doing so in several different countries. However, they all tend to share the same characteristics.

You have to raise standards for both admission and completion; you test to those standards; you raise salaries to match those standards; and you give respect, autonomy and authority to the people now adhering to those standards.

HOWEVER, that is going to cost money. Quite a lot of money. And, really, nobody is actually interested in doing that in the US. They're really only interested looking like they are concerned rather than actually fixing the problem.

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