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Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

reuters.com

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Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#11

Post by pmlnr »

techrede wrote: post #9
tcd wrote: post #2

So don't store data in iCloud? It's perfectly possible to perform your own encryption and hold the private key yourself.

Sure, many users in China can use other services, but it seems to be a no win situation for most people. Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud than they would using any other China-based service. Unfortunately that…

> Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how.

I'm completely pro-privacy, but I need to ask: why would ordinary people's ordinary data need better security? Even if iCloud might be decrypted by the government. If it's data like bills, government issued photos of ID cards, family photos, it will most likely won't matter at all and the security is good enough, just like anything available.

Once you do have a reason to encrypt something, learning GPG, LUKS, etc. is not that hard or that technical.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#12

Post by mtgx »

abalone wrote: post #8

To Apple's credit there are still significant parts of their platform that remain end-to-end encrypted even in China -- meaning that Apple or any other cloud operator can't read because they don't have the keys, notably:[1] - iMessage - Keychain - Siri data And more like health, home & payments. While it's unfortunate that Apple couldn't compel China to run their government requests for data through the U.S. court sy…

To Apple's non-credit, it's still tying iMessage backups to iCloud backups despite years of criticism over this. That means everyone who uses iCloud backups (enabled by default on iPhones) don't actually benefit from iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with).

I'd say people may as well forget about Apple's "privacy stance". It's nothing but smokescreen at this point (yes, even in the U.S.).

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#13

Post by mtgx »

natch wrote: post #10
supergirl wrote: post #5

Because if they would continue to store them in US then all would be well. They are perfectly safe in the US...

Apple did fight off the FBI over this issue not long ago. I'm not saying the war is over though... that was just one battle.

Yes, for one shooting event. And then it crawled back to the FBI to help it unlock the iPhone at the next shooting.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/08/apple-fbi-unlock-texas-s...

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#14

Post by mtgx »

tcd wrote: post #2

So don't store data in iCloud? It's perfectly possible to perform your own encryption and hold the private key yourself.

As usual with all privacy issues, most people aren't aware of what's happening behind the scenes, and companies usually don't have any incentive to be transparent about it.

It would be nice if Apple gave all of its Chinese iPhone users a nice big prompt that told them their iCloud/iMessage backups can be accessed by the Chinese government from that point forward, and maybe even tell them how they can disable it in the settings if they want to. It's the least Apple could do.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#15

Post by blfr »

pmlnr wrote: post #11
techrede wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, many users in China can use other services, but it seems to be a no win situation for most people. Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. At best you can say that Chinese users will likely be no worse off using iCloud than they would using any other China-based service. Unfortunately that…

> Unless you’re technically sophisticated, you’re unlikely to pursue alternatives which provide a greater degree of security and require a bit of technical know how. I'm completely pro-privacy, but I need to ask: why would ordinary people's ordinary data need better security? Even if iCloud might be decrypted by the government. If it's data like bills, government issued photos of ID cards, family photos, it will most…

LUKS, maybe. Although it lacks deniability.

GPG, however, has proven to be virtually impossible to properly use and almost no one does, even in the hacker crowd.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#16

Post by abalone »

mtgx wrote: post #12
abalone wrote: post #8

To Apple's credit there are still significant parts of their platform that remain end-to-end encrypted even in China -- meaning that Apple or any other cloud operator can't read because they don't have the keys, notably:[1] - iMessage - Keychain - Siri data And more like health, home & payments. While it's unfortunate that Apple couldn't compel China to run their government requests for data through the U.S. court sy…

To Apple's non -credit, it's still tying iMessage backups to iCloud backups despite years of criticism over this. That means everyone who uses iCloud backups (enabled by default on iPhones) don't actually benefit from iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with). I'd say people may as well forget about Apple's "privacy stance". It's n…

> iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with)

Could you support this claim please?

Re: iCloud backups you're correct. So far. They're about to release iMessages-in-iCloud though, which might obviate the need to include them in iCloud backups.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#17

Post by supergirl »

WillPostForFood wrote: post #7
supergirl wrote: post #5

Because if they would continue to store them in US then all would be well. They are perfectly safe in the US...

If you are a Chinese activist, then yes, of course you are better off with the keys anywhere outside China.

what about American activists? why nobody worries about them?

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#18

Post by klodolph »

supergirl wrote: post #17
WillPostForFood wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are a Chinese activist, then yes, of course you are better off with the keys anywhere outside China.

what about American activists? why nobody worries about them?

We do worry about American activists, but the legal system is different here and Americans can easily use services hosted outside the US. Chinese users cannot easily use services hosted outside China.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#19

Post by supergirl »

klodolph wrote: post #18
supergirl wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what about American activists? why nobody worries about them?

We do worry about American activists, but the legal system is different here and Americans can easily use services hosted outside the US. Chinese users cannot easily use services hosted outside China.

> Americans can easily use services hosted outside the US. Chinese users cannot easily use services hosted outside China.

Services hosted outside the US by companies with presence in the US fall under Patriot Act which means US can spy on them any time without warrant, but ianal. Even if the company has no presence in the US, there are only a handful of countries that would not bend over to hand data to US. That's why US doesn't need to block access to anything while China has to.

Re: Apple moves to store iCloud keys in China, raising human rights fears

#20

Post by madeofpalk »

mtgx wrote: post #12
abalone wrote: post #8

To Apple's credit there are still significant parts of their platform that remain end-to-end encrypted even in China -- meaning that Apple or any other cloud operator can't read because they don't have the keys, notably:[1] - iMessage - Keychain - Siri data And more like health, home & payments. While it's unfortunate that Apple couldn't compel China to run their government requests for data through the U.S. court sy…

To Apple's non -credit, it's still tying iMessage backups to iCloud backups despite years of criticism over this. That means everyone who uses iCloud backups (enabled by default on iPhones) don't actually benefit from iMessage's "end-to-end encryption" (which isn't that safe against sophisticated hackers or oppressive authorities to begin with). I'd say people may as well forget about Apple's "privacy stance". It's n…

My understanding is that Apple recently enabled end to end encryption for iOS backups using your password?
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