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You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

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Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#41

Post by mieseratte »

mrweasel wrote: post #26

The trust that Danes have towards other people is slowly eroding, and it is making us increasingly xenophobic. It's not that there aren't criminal or untrustworthy Danes, of cause there is, but it's easier to blame outsiders, like immigrants and roaming eastern European gangs. As the article points out, we're struggling to absorb outsiders. Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's co…

So, here's what I don't understand? If it causes societal trouble why let all these troublesome groups in? Does Denmark have some long history as a "nation of immigrants" like the United States does or is this some sort of self-inflicted punishment?

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#42

Post by Spooky23 »

0xcde4c3db wrote: post #4
joncrane wrote: post #2

I've been a fan of the Scandinavian model for government for a while, and I used to be one of those guys who would say something like "in NORWAY they blah blah blah" when discussing some social/governmental in a small group. But later on I realized more deeply that Norway is a tiny fraction of the population of the USA as well as a very culturally (and let's face it, racially) homogeneous population. Similar argument…

What arguments are those, exactly? What's the significance of a smaller population or homogeneity? Has any such relation been rigorously studied, or is it just speculation?

Culture drives attitude and perception.

People who look, worship (or not), work and have other things alike then to cluster together and have a sort of herd mentality.

In a place like the US, we have dramatically different groups of people all over the place. In Norway or Denmark, the differences are nonexistent to an American eye.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#43

Post by ggg9990 »

mrweasel wrote: post #26

The trust that Danes have towards other people is slowly eroding, and it is making us increasingly xenophobic. It's not that there aren't criminal or untrustworthy Danes, of cause there is, but it's easier to blame outsiders, like immigrants and roaming eastern European gangs. As the article points out, we're struggling to absorb outsiders. Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's co…

The loss of Denmark’s Denmark-ness is a direct consequence of uncontrolled immigration from low-trust countries. The xenophobia is perfectly rational but comes far too late.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#44

Post by jchb »

jacobr wrote: post #15
joncrane wrote: post #2

I've been a fan of the Scandinavian model for government for a while, and I used to be one of those guys who would say something like "in NORWAY they blah blah blah" when discussing some social/governmental in a small group. But later on I realized more deeply that Norway is a tiny fraction of the population of the USA as well as a very culturally (and let's face it, racially) homogeneous population. Similar argument…

It's not true that Scandinavian countries are homogeneous. 30% in Sweden are either born abroad or have at least 1 parent born abroad. Even more obviously have some non-Swedish cultural background or influence.

This is a pretty recent phenomena. The first large immigration wave came in the end of the 60s [0]. Before that, the few foreign born citizens where mostly from the neighboring Scandinavian countries. Until 2017, the largest group among foreign born Swedish citizens where.. Finnish.

Now, that although that has changed, the article mentions the large immigrant population isn't well integrated in society in Denmark, well they aren't in Sweden either. It would be fair to say that there are multiple parallel societies. Political and business life is to a large extent dominated by ethnic Swedes.

[0] http://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subjec...

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#45

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

titanix2 wrote: post #34
PhilipA wrote: post #8

Being from Denmark, but living in the US now, I see the main problem with Denmark that a lot of people are complacent. While the system works now, I doubt it will be positive in the long run. We are not hungry enough, and for too many people right now it isn't worth it to work (Too little difference between working wage and welfare). Again, this is just a few negative statements, there are lot of positive areas (Free…

> Too little difference between working wage and welfare I’ve been on welfare in France for a few months to focus on a project. I’ve seen from the inside how the sytem disincentive attempt at working or learning. I’ll list some reason why. - You cannot get the money if you have a job or are enrolled in a formation which encourage doing nothing - Money is not huge if you have a rent, but it also come with reduction on…

> All in all this is not a way to reintegrate to society (by working) if you have a problem entering it or due to a lay off. It is a separate way of living with people specializing in it, a large part having no intention to work whatsoever.

On the other hand, in the Nordic countries work is thankfully not the only way to be part of society, because there are so many subsidized community centres and free or very low-cost activities that even people on the dole can attend. Even if some portion of unemployed people will just laze or booze, there is always somewhere fun and wholesome for the others to spend their time even in smaller towns.

That is why I think basic income could work out well in the Nordic countries, but would be hard to implement in the USA where most of the country is generally against such intense subsidizing of locals arts, culture, libraries (even hackerspaces in some), etc. There people might get enough money to survive, but where would they go out? Who would they talk to? You imagine that people would just spend so much of their time online instead of having much of a local community life, and that might be unhealthy.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#46

Post by DanAndersen »

A tangential concept that might be of interest to the commenters is the Arabic term "asabiyyah" [0]:

>`Asabiyya or asabiyyah (Arabic: عصبيّة) refers to social solidarity with an emphasis on unity, group consciousness and sense of shared purpose, and social cohesion,[1] originally in a context of "tribalism" and "clanism".

The 14th-century Arab historian Ibn Khaldun talked about it in a cyclical sense, related to rise and fall of civilizations, and had dire descriptions about when societies lost asabiyyah.

In general, it's a sort of group feeling or solidarity, a sense that you and those around you are on the same side and have each other's backs -- as opposed to a society where you don't know your neighbors and you just happen to live among a bunch of other people who have no aligned interests or goals. Even the so-called "rugged individualism" mythos of early pioneer/settler American colonists still was embedded in nested layers of communal structure, layers that can seem invisible when you're constantly immersed in it.

What I think makes this and the Denmark article interesting is that they're trying to point at a concept that is inherently fuzzy and qualitative (how do you measure units of social cohesion?), and yet seems to play an important role in how a social system works. Tweaking a policy knob here or adjusting a legislative knob there may have influences on this, but the possible effects are constrained and filtered through the ever-present culture. Everything is part of the system (think about the laws we have in which implicit expectation of selective enforcement is what makes it even functional, like speeding). People are both code (their DNA) and its expression in the environment (epigenetics). Programming teams are both the tools they use (IDEs, source control, Agile, etc) and the fuzzy culture that makes it work well in Company A and fail utterly when trying to apply it to Company B.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asabiyyah

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#47

Post by rayiner »

jeromegv wrote: post #13
0xcde4c3db wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What arguments are those, exactly? What's the significance of a smaller population or homogeneity? Has any such relation been rigorously studied, or is it just speculation?

Americans always tend to use homogeneity as an argument when they compare themselves with other countries, like it’s somehow a good argument not to be as good as other countries in some aspects. Like you, I doubt that this is actually relevant. Canada is nothing but diverse, in a very similar way to the US and somehow it’s never used an excuse.

> Canada is nothing but diverse, in a very similar way to the US and somehow it’s never used an excuse.

Less than 20% of Canada is a "visible minority." In the U.S., it's almost 40%. Toronto recently became a majority minority city. Washington, D.C. became a majority minority city sometime in the 1950s. In Chicago, it was sometime in the 1980s. Canada has no majority-minority provinces. Ontario is still 67% European (roughly on par with Connecticut). Our two largest states, California and Texas, are both majority-minority states.

Recency matters too. Much of Canada's diversity is very recent. American politics has in contrast been shaped by these conflicts for decades (really, from inception--we fought a whole civil war over race!).

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#48

Post by bhouston »

ggg9990 wrote: post #43
mrweasel wrote: post #26

The trust that Danes have towards other people is slowly eroding, and it is making us increasingly xenophobic. It's not that there aren't criminal or untrustworthy Danes, of cause there is, but it's easier to blame outsiders, like immigrants and roaming eastern European gangs. As the article points out, we're struggling to absorb outsiders. Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's co…

The loss of Denmark’s Denmark-ness is a direct consequence of uncontrolled immigration from low-trust countries. The xenophobia is perfectly rational but comes far too late.

I believe that the issue isn't high and low trust countries but rather that people in the general case trust others who are like them, because they feel shared interests. I've read some studies that the more multi-cultural a society, especially if there isn't a shared concept of a nation in the immigrants, there is less trust because people do not view their peers across cultural lines as having their own interests. Basically multi-cultural societies in which there isn't integration, shared values, etc. lead to low trust as each group views them as competing with the "different" others.

Even if all the groups came from high trust countries, if combined they do not feel a sense of shared values, patriotism, they will have low trust between these groups.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#49

Post by rdiddly »

I notice the absorption of outsiders is portrayed as a goal, implying that it's an unalloyed good, beyond question. Is there some good reason to think that? I mean America prides itself on it, but is there any good reason to think that (for example) Danes should be responsible for non-Danes? Or on a basic level, what's wrong with having places exist in the world where the people there are mostly from there? Isn't that what a nation is? And wouldn't the people of such a place tend to exercise their sovereignty to decide, based on whatever criteria they want to use, how many and which people they allow to join the club? I dunno... Sure wish we could have a rational discussion about it, without it degenerating into nationalist race-baiting on the one side and jumping to conclusions and cries of xenophobia on the other.

Re: You Can't Have Denmark Without Danes

#50

Post by nextos »

mieseratte wrote: post #41
mrweasel wrote: post #26

The trust that Danes have towards other people is slowly eroding, and it is making us increasingly xenophobic. It's not that there aren't criminal or untrustworthy Danes, of cause there is, but it's easier to blame outsiders, like immigrants and roaming eastern European gangs. As the article points out, we're struggling to absorb outsiders. Teaching a Romanian immigrant, or a refugee from the middle east that it's co…

So, here's what I don't understand? If it causes societal trouble why let all these troublesome groups in? Does Denmark have some long history as a "nation of immigrants" like the United States does or is this some sort of self-inflicted punishment?

Denmark got a first wave of immigration in the 60s. Mostly Turkish people. They are reasonably well integrated.

The problem comes from the recent wave and semi-open borders within EU that make it easy for some mafias to move into the country to commit crime. It's a tought problem.

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