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21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

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Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#61

Post by fro0116 »

randomdata wrote: post #59
fro0116 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best talent has no trouble attracting far more than $80,000/year. I'm mediocre at best and have had no trouble attracting far more than that amount, in rural Canada no less. The people being offered $80,000/year are not the top talent that you speak of. I was simply giving my own past offers as an anecdote to illustrate the cost-benefit analysis of why someone in that situation might choose to leave Canada. I w…

> and by no means was I trying to claim anything about my own level of talent. I did not realize we were talking about you? It is simply that the average figure of $80,000 given earlier represents average. The nature of average means that there will be values that are higher. That is where your top talent lies, mathematically. Average tech people lie at the average. > Similarly, the quoted piece of your post above re…

> I did not realize we were talking about you?

I re-read my original comment again and still think it was pretty clear, but I realize how easy it may be to gloss over things like that in reading, and in hindsight it was definitely in bad taste on my part to assume malice and respond with a snarky comment like I did, so I apologize.

> I'm just not clear how "if you build it, they will come" applies here. We've built the workforce and the work hasn't come. As a result, people are opting to leave for the US where the work is needed. If the tech industry utilized the top talent, and even the not so top talent, these people would have never left. You might have a good point here, and I am interested in learning about it, but I'm afraid I still haven't quite grasped how you think this would actually play out in the real world.

It sounds like we're at two different sides of the same chicken and egg problem.

My view is that if we had more competitive salaries, those who have left Canada may have chosen to stay and help build more successful Canadian tech companies, which would then make the tech industry as a whole more competitive relative to the US, and therefore our job market would become less saturated and we'd be able to afford to pay for better salaries and employ more talent.

You seem to have started at the other end of that chain of reasoning and worked backwards, i.e. our job market is saturated, and thus we can't employ more talent without deflating salaries further, etc, etc.

I don't think either view is more or less valid than the other. Like any other chicken and egg problem it really depends on your starting point.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#62

Post by the_mitsuhiko »

adventured wrote: post #49
the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we (Europeans) generally argue that paying taxes and universal healthcare is great not that earning less is. Also while some professions pay less others pay more (like working in a grocery store) so it’s not that clear cut.

That's a pretty broad statement about Europe. The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany. If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case. The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the dev…

> The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany.

There are some poor countries like Bulgaria and Romania. Most of Europe is doing just fine. Like you have poor Europe you also have poor US cities and countries and if you compare the poor parts you will find them not all too different.

> If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case.

Even if you have great insurance the knowledge that whatever happens to you, you are fine is an amazing feeling. Also knowing that everybody (with exceptions like people who are there illegally and not entitled to healthcare) having coverage adds to your personal quality of life tremendously.

> The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations

It’s not about how progressive the system is but how much you pay and get for it. In the US you need disposable income to get qualitatively high services and most of those are individual things. Eg: public transit and things like that are hard to get and underfunded.

> Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US.

A grocery store worker in central Europe earning minimum wage or equivalent gets social security, child support, maternity leave of a year, a guaranteed job after returning and a dystem that supports their children and partner. It’s not the money that matters but what you get.

In Austria for instance someone working in a grocery store has a minimum wage of 21000 eur a year minimum, guaranteed increases every year. A 38 euro work week with guaranteed overtime pay, a guaranteed weekend (and at least every secon saturday off), one year of maternity/paternity money and time off, 5 weeks of holiday, two months of notice, unemployment insurance, guaranteed salaries in case of bancruptcy and much more.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#63

Post by eecks »

marvin wrote: post #6
chvid wrote: post #4

I can tell you it is the same for a software engineer in Copenhagen. Salaries peeked in 2000 and have yet to catch up in real terms.

Certainly it isn't the same in absolute terms? You can get a two-bedroom apartment in Copenhagen for $300,000 or so. I haven't heard of any place in Europe where you can expect to make anything close to this for any normal software engineering role. (I earn around, maybe less than half the average in this graph, in Norway).

In Dublin, Ireland you would pay about 500k USD for a 2 bed apartment

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#64

Post by andrew_wc_brown »

I live in Canada and its quite upsetting to see salaries just a skip over the border that are 120K USD for remote positions but they won't even entertain hiring a Canadian, meaning in Canada the remoting range is 55-70 CAD USD. Going above 70K is possible but in my experience those jobs can only be acquired through personal networking in the GTA which is self-defeating because it keeps you tethered to the GTA.

Imagine if I could live somewhere like Thunder Bay and make a 120K remote. The only possibility has been freelancing and I was successful for a while remoting though running your own company came with downsides which led to my eventual decision to work back full time for a company.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#65

Post by farnsworthy »

andrew_wc_brown wrote: post #64

I live in Canada and its quite upsetting to see salaries just a skip over the border that are 120K USD for remote positions but they won't even entertain hiring a Canadian, meaning in Canada the remoting range is 55-70 CAD USD. Going above 70K is possible but in my experience those jobs can only be acquired through personal networking in the GTA which is self-defeating because it keeps you tethered to the GTA. Imagin…

Where are you looking? I think most remote posts I see now are open to people in North America, or one of its time zones.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#66

Post by zbentley »

montrose wrote: post #2

The graph seems related to the graph of venture funding over the same period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:US_VC_funding.png Which is not surprising considering that salaries are the number one thing venture funding is spent on.

> salaries are the number one thing venture funding is spent on.

Are you sure? I think that's possible, but my first guess would be rent (anywhere, not just in SF--unless you're all remote, even tiny corporate real estate is expensive), followed by salaries/benefits.

Regardless, it would be interesting to see some data explaining how VC funding is spent. Even better to see how the spending percentages change over time/stage.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#67

Post by 20180201 »

em500 wrote: post #16
sevagh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too. Looks like the majority of the European "better lifestyle" involves convincing people on the internet that making a fraction of a Bay Area salary is somehow a good thing.

It depends very much on life stage. I make about 2/3 of these figures in Amsterdam now, and have declined recent opportunities to move to the Bay Area. If I were single and 10 years younger, I would have jumped at the chance. But now at 40 with two young kids in nice schools, a comfy house with a 15 minute commute and a partner with a good income, it takes a lot more to make me move.

as a software engineer, you're correct. but most managers and executives @ 40 years old make at least 300k+ in the bay area if you include total compensation i.e. sellable stock and options. in a married couple it's common to make over 500k combined.

please remember that i'm talking about a really good job, in the bay area. this isn't "normal" anywhere else in the US except maybe LA or NY or if you are a top executive in the energy industry in texas.

they're just not blabbing about it on reddit or hn.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#68

Post by sdhgaiojfsa »

fyfy18 wrote: post #5

As someone who hasn’t even worked in the US, let alone SF, is this a typical wage for that area? I live in a small European city, earning around half this, but my outgoings are a lot less (under €1k/mo) than what I would be paying in SF, so I’m probably saving more at the end of the day. I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too.

If anything it might be a little low. For example, "senior" engineer at Google (a rank you can hit in less than five years if you are competent) pays 250k according to GlassDoor[1]. The other competitive BigCos are similar, some paying more, and some paying less.

[1]: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Senior-Software-Engi...

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#70

Post by CalRobert »

sevagh wrote: post #7
fyfy18 wrote: post #5

As someone who hasn’t even worked in the US, let alone SF, is this a typical wage for that area? I live in a small European city, earning around half this, but my outgoings are a lot less (under €1k/mo) than what I would be paying in SF, so I’m probably saving more at the end of the day. I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too.

>I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too. Looks like the majority of the European "better lifestyle" involves convincing people on the internet that making a fraction of a Bay Area salary is somehow a good thing.

I moved from CA to Europe. Don't regret it. I get a month and a half of vacation, a nice walkable city, and don't feel like I live in a dying democracy.

Two days ago my infant was sick. Made one phone call and thirty minutes later a qualified gp showed up at my apartment and made sure everything was fine. At 2 AM. For free.

In the US I could make more money but would spend it all on rent and cars (and private school tuition in a few years), and my time on commuting and explaining to colleagues that I never check email on vacation. Ever.

I'll keep what I've got. Also, lower eu salaries should make it easier to start a business if the mood strikes.

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