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21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

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Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#41

Post by adventured »

eertami wrote: post #19
sevagh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too. Looks like the majority of the European "better lifestyle" involves convincing people on the internet that making a fraction of a Bay Area salary is somehow a good thing.

Or maybe they simply have 0 interest living in a place where the majority of inhabitants are young male tech workers. I can't think of anything more dull. Salary offer would.need to be much more than the bay currently pays before I'd even consider it.

Your premise is incorrect on two counts.

San Francisco is 51/49, male/female. Not a particularly high imbalance at all.

The median age is 38, which is older than the median age in all of California.

The majority of inhabitants in SF, are in fact not young male tech workers.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#42

Post by crdoconnor »

fro0116 wrote: post #35
walrus01 wrote: post #8

Meanwhile, Vancouver BC boasted about the famously low salaries of its software engineers and people with similar skill sets, in a failed bid to attract Amazon HQ2: https://www.google.com/search?q=vancouver+amazon+hq+bid+sala... In my opinion a pretty stupid thing to do, considering the low probability of Amazon choosing either Portland or Vancouver as second headquarters. Too close to Seattle and still within the sa…

Former Vancouverite here. I really wanted to work in Vancouver, but I simply could not justify taking the ~$80k CAD offer I had in Vancouver over an ~$140k USD offer from a company in SF. Even when taking into account the cost of living difference, which worked out to be about the same as the ratio between the salaries, the higher salary in SF wins out because given similar savings rates, the higher your salary, the…

I felt exactly the same way about Singapore. Penny pinching, MBA-ish types who don't get tech running everything, a confucianist predilection towards authoritarian managerial styles and nobody rocking the boat makes it something of a tech wasteland.

Ironic cos the government has Silicon Valley envy and they've got it real bad - spraying cash liberally at everyone except actual developers in an attempt to clone the magic.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#43

Post by praulv »

fro0116 wrote: post #35
walrus01 wrote: post #8

Meanwhile, Vancouver BC boasted about the famously low salaries of its software engineers and people with similar skill sets, in a failed bid to attract Amazon HQ2: https://www.google.com/search?q=vancouver+amazon+hq+bid+sala... In my opinion a pretty stupid thing to do, considering the low probability of Amazon choosing either Portland or Vancouver as second headquarters. Too close to Seattle and still within the sa…

Former Vancouverite here. I really wanted to work in Vancouver, but I simply could not justify taking the ~$80k CAD offer I had in Vancouver over an ~$140k USD offer from a company in SF. Even when taking into account the cost of living difference, which worked out to be about the same as the ratio between the salaries, the higher salary in SF wins out because given similar savings rates, the higher your salary, the…

How does this square against the housing situation? From what I've heard Vancouver housing is comparable to London.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#44

Post by randomdata »

fro0116 wrote: post #35
walrus01 wrote: post #8

Meanwhile, Vancouver BC boasted about the famously low salaries of its software engineers and people with similar skill sets, in a failed bid to attract Amazon HQ2: https://www.google.com/search?q=vancouver+amazon+hq+bid+sala... In my opinion a pretty stupid thing to do, considering the low probability of Amazon choosing either Portland or Vancouver as second headquarters. Too close to Seattle and still within the sa…

Former Vancouverite here. I really wanted to work in Vancouver, but I simply could not justify taking the ~$80k CAD offer I had in Vancouver over an ~$140k USD offer from a company in SF. Even when taking into account the cost of living difference, which worked out to be about the same as the ratio between the salaries, the higher salary in SF wins out because given similar savings rates, the higher your salary, the…

> Collectively, the tech industry in Canada would reap great long-term benefits from offering salaries that are competitive with those in the US. But companies acting in short-term self-interest only try to pay their employees the bare minimum they can get away with

What is the benefit (other than, like most people, wishing that you could make more money)? The only thing I can think of is that you believe people who bring something extra special to a business expect more, but those specific people are already paid more than the typical tech worker because they bring something special that is worth paying more for.

For tech people in general, the pay is low, relatively speaking, because the market is saying that Canada does not need more tech people. That is, compared to the US which has a much greater need for more tech professionals; we're still a long way from sales clerk-level overabundance of labour.

In Canada there are fewer tech jobs overall, while being a society that puts intense social pressure on its youth to focus on getting jobs like these. There's a reason Canada is named the most educated nation on earth and it's precisely why the pay is comparatively low for these types of jobs.

If we want higher pay we either need a lot more tech work, or fewer people willing and able to work in the tech industry.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#45

Post by walshemj »

virtuowl wrote: post #11
sevagh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too. Looks like the majority of the European "better lifestyle" involves convincing people on the internet that making a fraction of a Bay Area salary is somehow a good thing.

Well, you get good healthcare and pension in most european countries. You can live a lot cheaper than in the big cities in the us and there is no gangs and not as many drug addicts

Compare housing costs in London, Paris etc vs SV - yes health care Is nice but that is used as an excuse by employers who also benefit from the European health systems.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#46

Post by walrus01 »

praulv wrote: post #43
fro0116 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former Vancouverite here. I really wanted to work in Vancouver, but I simply could not justify taking the ~$80k CAD offer I had in Vancouver over an ~$140k USD offer from a company in SF. Even when taking into account the cost of living difference, which worked out to be about the same as the ratio between the salaries, the higher salary in SF wins out because given similar savings rates, the higher your salary, the…

How does this square against the housing situation? From what I've heard Vancouver housing is comparable to London.

Vancouver has the tech salaries of a small city like Boise and the housing costs of San Francisco.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#47

Post by fro0116 »

randomdata wrote: post #44
fro0116 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Former Vancouverite here. I really wanted to work in Vancouver, but I simply could not justify taking the ~$80k CAD offer I had in Vancouver over an ~$140k USD offer from a company in SF. Even when taking into account the cost of living difference, which worked out to be about the same as the ratio between the salaries, the higher salary in SF wins out because given similar savings rates, the higher your salary, the…

> Collectively, the tech industry in Canada would reap great long-term benefits from offering salaries that are competitive with those in the US. But companies acting in short-term self-interest only try to pay their employees the bare minimum they can get away with What is the benefit (other than, like most people, wishing that you could make more money)? The only thing I can think of is that you believe people who…

In case I wasn't being clear enough, by benefits, I meant benefits from the perspective of the Canadian tech industry, not necessarily from the perspective of Canadian society as a whole (that's a much more complex and nuanced subject, one that I haven't made up my mind on myself, and your points certainly seem valid).

And the most obvious such benefit I can think of is slowing and/or reversing the longstanding trend of the Canadian tech industry losing some of its best talent to the US because of salary disparity.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#48

Post by pmorici »

ionwake wrote: post #17

Does anyone know what the take home pay is after tax for a 200k job - a month - after typical rent - in Frisco?

You can go on sites like Zillow or PadMapper and see rental listings. $4,000 seems typical now days for a 1 bedroom or studio. If you really want to slum it or have roommates you can find situations for less but for someone who has grown out of the roommates and frat house life style those options probably aren't appealing.

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#49

Post by adventured »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #26
sevagh wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I’d argue my lifestyle is a lot better too. Looks like the majority of the European "better lifestyle" involves convincing people on the internet that making a fraction of a Bay Area salary is somehow a good thing.

I think we (Europeans) generally argue that paying taxes and universal healthcare is great not that earning less is. Also while some professions pay less others pay more (like working in a grocery store) so it’s not that clear cut.

That's a pretty broad statement about Europe. The majority of Europe is poor compared to Sweden or Germany.

If you're making ~$60,000 or more in the US, you are overwhelmingly going to have good health insurance. If you're making $140,000, you're going to have great health insurance. I fail to see how universal healthcare is a lure in this case.

The US has a far more progressive income tax system than most of the developed European nations (Scandinavian nations for example have a highly regressive income tax system compared to the US [1]). In the US the rich pay nearly all income taxes (the top 25% pay ~90% of all income taxes). If you're poor in the US you get free healthcare.

Grocery stores in Europe do not pay better than in the US. The majority of Europe has a median income that doesn't reach the US average minimum wage (state blended). A cashier in Germany makes a similar wage as a cashier in the US (the median in the US is around $21k). The US has considerably higher wages than all nations in Europe except for four (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Switzerland). The EU's median income is 60% that of the US. So if you're going to compare, it doesn't make sense to ever say "Europe" - you can't reasonably compare Russia, Poland or Spain to the US on income. It's about as useful as saying "Asia" in an income comparison.

[1] https://taxfoundation.org/how-scandinavian-countries-pay-the...

Re: 21 Years of Income as a Software Engineer in San Francisco

#50

Post by randomdata »

fro0116 wrote: post #47
randomdata wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Collectively, the tech industry in Canada would reap great long-term benefits from offering salaries that are competitive with those in the US. But companies acting in short-term self-interest only try to pay their employees the bare minimum they can get away with What is the benefit (other than, like most people, wishing that you could make more money)? The only thing I can think of is that you believe people who…

In case I wasn't being clear enough, by benefits, I meant benefits from the perspective of the Canadian tech industry, not necessarily from the perspective of Canadian society as a whole (that's a much more complex and nuanced subject, one that I haven't made up my mind on myself, and your points certainly seem valid). And the most obvious such benefit I can think of is slowing and/or reversing the longstanding trend…

> And the most obvious benefit I can think of is slowing and/or reversing the longstanding trend of the Canadian tech industry losing some of its best talent to the US because of salary disparity.

The best talent that offers something special has no trouble attracting far more than $80,000/year in Canada. The people being offered $80,000/year are not the top talent that you speak of. That is an average, representing the average.

And for average people, that's a feature to see them leave the country for places that need them more. Again, we simply don't have enough work in Canada for all the tech people Canada is producing. We, as a society, put intense pressure on our youth to strive for careers like these and as a result we are pumping them out at rate that is well beyond the actual need for them (domestically).

If everyone who is capable of tech work that came up in Canada remained in Canada, the job would be quickly approaching minimum wage for an average worker. The fact that we have so many leaving for the US is the only thing that has allowed us to maintain something as a high as $80,000 average tech salaries.

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