Live data from Hacker News

Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

coinsocial.io

101–110 of 165 posts

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#101
post #9

As an engineer, it saddens me to see the huge inefficiencies inherent to cryptocurrency mining these days. Surely, when we're spending in the billions on wasteful hashing, we could dedicate a small fraction of that to engineering better consensus algorithms. Unfortunately, we have an ecosystem where everyone is incentivized to ignore the problem because they're too invested in maintaining the price of Bitcoin and oth…

This means you're an "engineer" but not yet an economist.

Try to study economics if you're really serious about your career in cryptocurrency area, you'll find yourself thinking completely differently. At least you'll get to a point where you don't make a wholesale criticism like this but can say "I know it would be better to have a tech that consumes less energy, but I also understand why it's not a trivial issue, because physics and economics."

One of the biggest fallacies in the history of economics that repeats itself over and over and over again is that people make decisions based on what they can see but they neglect what they can't see that happens as a result of what they can see.

As much as I would like to see PoS work, it may just be the case is that at the end of the day, PoS and PoW are the same in the grand scheme of things, not because of some greedy people with financial interest but because of physics. It's hard to make sense of this unless you study economics, no matter how great of an engineer you are.

[Edit] I hope my comment works as a wakeup call for those of you who are open minded enough to learn a piece of the puzzle that's obviously missing from your mindset (I shared it because once I learned it, I was so regretful for not having studied even a little bit of economics in my life until now), but looking at all the downvotes, looks like most people don't like to hear what they don't like to hear. I don't really mind, suit yourself. But just remember "Cryptocurrency" is "Crypto" + "Currency", which means it's not just CS, but also economics.

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#102
post #9

As an engineer, it saddens me to see the huge inefficiencies inherent to cryptocurrency mining these days. Surely, when we're spending in the billions on wasteful hashing, we could dedicate a small fraction of that to engineering better consensus algorithms. Unfortunately, we have an ecosystem where everyone is incentivized to ignore the problem because they're too invested in maintaining the price of Bitcoin and oth…

This means you're an "engineer" but not yet an economist. Try to study economics if you're really serious about your career in cryptocurrency area, you'll find yourself thinking completely differently. At least you'll get to a point where you don't make a wholesale criticism like this but can say "I know it would be better to have a tech that consumes less energy, but I also understand why it's not a trivial issue, b…

What do you mean “the same in the grand scheme of things”? By what metric?

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#103
post #95
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With PoW you use your money to buy mining equipment and you will get more money, and voting power. With PoS you buy more of the currency with that money instead.

Right, but the rest of us also have to suffer due to the economic repercussions (or being unable to get an affordable graphics card without waiting forever)

the economist would say...

"affordable" is a opinion.

the market price is the market price, if you want one you have to pay more.

you are not entitled to a good at the price you think is "fair"

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have now been about a half-dozen various suggestions to get the network to carry more transactions, all of which are mostly failures, except for Lightning Network, which is now in the process of becoming a failure.

Lightning is DOA. Who has ever heard of opening a payment channel to buy a cup of coffee?

happens every time I wave my credit card in front of a payment terminal

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#105
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This means you're an "engineer" but not yet an economist. Try to study economics if you're really serious about your career in cryptocurrency area, you'll find yourself thinking completely differently. At least you'll get to a point where you don't make a wholesale criticism like this but can say "I know it would be better to have a tech that consumes less energy, but I also understand why it's not a trivial issue, b…

What do you mean “the same in the grand scheme of things”? By what metric?

Newton's 3rd law:

Proof of Work and Proof of Stake both waste tons of energy, and of course, the entire economic system both of them are trying to replace also waste tons of energy.

The problem is, Proof of Work is very objective and measurable, which is why most people criticize Bitcoin for its waste of energy since it's so easy to measure.

But proof of stake and the legacy economic system both lack such objective measures, which is why it's hard to compare them. The term "stake" itself is subjective and doesn't take into account the economic ripple effect it can trigger as a result.

And these ripple effects DO exist, it's just that most people are not aware of them and just take for granted. Which is why I think it's crucial that you study the history of money before you can confidently say you understand "how money works".

This is not to say proof of stake won't work. It's just saying that there's a high chance that there's hidden cost to proof of stake which in the long run can map to the amount of energy wasted by proof of stake, which is backed by newton's 3rd law. You can't create energy. Everything that happens on earth is simply a transfer of limited amount of energy from the sun.

If this sounds all woo-woo to you, that's why I suggest studying economics.

I personally think the only way to overcome energy consumption is to come up with innovation that's as different from newtonian physics to quantum physics.

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#106
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading somewhere they also use the shovel for a while before sending it off.

If triple dipping is the norm for ISPs, why not let hardware manufacturers double dip?

Triple dipping?

Is that 1. End user, 2. Content provider (e.g. “fast lanes” for Netflix), and 3. Government subsidies?

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#107
post #2

Making and selling shovels seems to be still the best way to go then.

In a war the group that profits the most is arms dealers.

In a situation where there's a demand for a certain type of goods, those who create those goods are going to profit.

Comparing crypto mining to a war is unnecessarily evokative and manipulative.

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PoS is literally get paid for doing nothing but owning lottery tickets. Normal capital flow with bonds, stocks, etc allow a legally binding agreement for mutually beneficial transfer of capital between parties.

Well, they get paid for putting that capital at risk and for keeping it locked into the system to provide consensus. It's a kind of a service.

Except only the top few largest "stakers" are paid, others are either disqualified entirely for being too poor to stake, or will not recieve block rewards for being statistically irrelevant.

PoS is a lottery with reusable tickets. Winners get more tickets.

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#109
post #9

As an engineer, it saddens me to see the huge inefficiencies inherent to cryptocurrency mining these days. Surely, when we're spending in the billions on wasteful hashing, we could dedicate a small fraction of that to engineering better consensus algorithms. Unfortunately, we have an ecosystem where everyone is incentivized to ignore the problem because they're too invested in maintaining the price of Bitcoin and oth…

I wonder what happened to primecoin. Could Bitcoin switch to such a PoW in the future?

Switch, no. The ASIC miners would never vote for something that would destroy half of their investment. A fork could totally happen. That's what Bitcoin Gold did by forking the blockchain to using the Equihash algorithm.

Re: Bitmain, the largest mining hardware company, made around $4B last year

#110
post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean “the same in the grand scheme of things”? By what metric?

Newton's 3rd law: Proof of Work and Proof of Stake both waste tons of energy, and of course, the entire economic system both of them are trying to replace also waste tons of energy. The problem is, Proof of Work is very objective and measurable, which is why most people criticize Bitcoin for its waste of energy since it's so easy to measure. But proof of stake and the legacy economic system both lack such objective m…

PoW requires brute force. PoS requires tied up capital. Do you really think the energy usage is the same...physically? Sounds like nonsense with no backing.
Post reply on HN