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From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

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Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#51

Post by yorwba »

yusuke10 wrote: post #20

It's funny, if an author with a book to peddle repeats the mantra enough times..."China is innovative", it might become true. And yet, what evidence does she raise? "the electronics were assembled in China; almost never were they invented in China" "paying with your smartphone has become the norm" "bikeshare firms" "China has the largest number of unicorns outside the US" Nothing that would define as innovations. Let…

I agree that those are not examples of original ideas. But being the first to have an idea isn't actually that important. James Watt is famous for the steam engine, although he "only" improved the existing design.

Similarly, the innovation in many of the domains where China is "ahead" of the rest of the world is not in the original idea, but in actually making it work so that it took off. And that doesn't necessarily mean that those Chinese companies were somehow more innovative than companies that tried the same ideas elsewhere, but that the Chinese market valued those ideas more.

I'm actually not sure how many Japanese innovations weren't "just" incremental improvements of some existing idea that were tried in multiple countries but took off the fastest in Japan.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#52

Post by petra »

Chiba-City wrote: post #14

There is nothing obviously wrong with copying things and nothing obvious right with "inventing" them first. DOS was not first but beat CPM. Microsoft even went on to PROMOTE its "fast follower" modus operandi. VC's seeking exits have very sound reasons for wanting something "first" and preferably "license protected." But those wins do not obviously confer to either nation states or even all industries or companies. M…

It probably depends on industry. It doesn't work so well in today's software, like Microsoft has proved. Also in industries with strong patents or with effective process secrets. And i'm not sure that way of thinking is effective in industries with network effects.

So what's left ? usually industries with low-margins. And afaik, that generally describes China.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#53

Post by seanmcdirmid »

tinyrick2 wrote: post #48
tristanj wrote: post #2

This article is missing the key part where China blocked and limited products by major foreign tech giants such as Google, Facebook, Microsoft et al so homegrown Chinese variants could flourish.

Don't you think that by limiting foreign companies' products the local companies would operate less efficiently since there is no competition? I think I was taught about this in my econ 101 class. Why does it work differently this time?

No, it’s still true. Chinese companies in protected industries are as inefficient as expected.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#54

Post by geomark »

aianus wrote: post #27
cylinder wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does totalitarianism have to do with them doing business? China produces stuff I want. And increasingly, China produces stuff China wants. This is business. There will never be a world war again, the US cannot sustain a real war against China at all, it will just use nukes (or China will). Why do Americans fantasize about war so much?!

> China produces stuff I want China produces almost nothing I want unless you count foreign-designed products that happen to be manufactured there under contract. Maybe steel and rare earth metals? I've tried their flagship apps too (WeChat, Alipay, Alibaba, AliExpress) and they are just really awful compared to their Western equivalents. Not just in subjective look-and-feel ways either: the AliExpress signup flow wa…

Curious, what would you consider the western equivalent of AliExpress to be?

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#55

Post by seanmcdirmid »

hownottowrite wrote: post #42

The article is missing the real step one: Education. From "China’s rise as a major contributor to science and technology"[0]: "China is now the world’s distant leader in bachelor’s degrees in Science and Engineering, with 1.1 million in 2010, more than four times the US figure. This large disparity reflects not only China’s dramatic expansion in higher education since 1999 but also a much higher percentage of student…

Many of those CS degrees outside of first and second tier universities are not very good, however. When every foreign language unverisity and teacher’s college (there called normal universities) has a CS department, there is definitely something going on.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#56

Post by seanmcdirmid »

vadimberman wrote: post #34
ghostcluster wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Best example I can think of is DJI. Best in class consumer electronics drone manufacturer and a worldwide brand with high cache. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DJI_(company) Founded by a Chinese engineering student with a personal aeronautics hobby, based in Shenzhen — he's now a billionaire.

Actually, yes. DJI and Yi-Hang. These ones are truly impressive. But apart from this, KPIs aside, the Chinese landscape is amazingly scarce innovation-wise. If one has to tout bikesharing as innovation, it sounds like there's not much to brag about. I am puzzled at Kai-Fu Lee's claims, he's not just another VC.

I’ve heard from someone who actually met with him at Innovation Works that Kai Fu actually encourages the startups he funds to be derivative. It is much less risky that way, and VCs in china don’t like much risk, Preferring to transplant proven businesses from elsewhere.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#57

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bewo001 wrote: post #36
IntronExon wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Real Step Two: Just copy everything.

Every industrial nation started by copying the British. The European countries and the US did it in the 19th century. In the 1960s/70, everybody joked about the Japanese copying everything. In the 80s, South Korea was known for cheap copies of electronic devices. It is/was only a matter of time for China to move from copying to innovating.

Technological diffusion has been happening since Ogg the caveman invented the wheel. Heck, there is evidence that even writing was diffused from one location in Eurasia, though the Chinese vehemently deny the possibility.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#58

Post by seanmcdirmid »

speedplane wrote: post #37
bewo001 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every industrial nation started by copying the British. The European countries and the US did it in the 19th century. In the 1960s/70, everybody joked about the Japanese copying everything. In the 80s, South Korea was known for cheap copies of electronic devices. It is/was only a matter of time for China to move from copying to innovating.

One thing the U.S. (and Europe) still deal very well is branding and messaging. Most of our electronics are designed and made in China, but they are still branded and sold by western countries. The U.S. is still adept at manufacturing brands, lifestyles, identity, and "cool". While China developing it's own technology was practically inevitable, it will be far more interesting when they begin influencing what people…

Most of our electronics are made in china, many are definitely not designed there. Anything made for Apple definitely isn’t, most American branded electronics aren’t either. If it is designed in china, it will be obvious by the Chinese brand (e.g. Lenovo); the only big foreign company I can think of that lends its brand to Chinese designs is Nokia.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#59

Post by tqkxzugoaupvwqr »

tinyrick2 wrote: post #48
tristanj wrote: post #2

This article is missing the key part where China blocked and limited products by major foreign tech giants such as Google, Facebook, Microsoft et al so homegrown Chinese variants could flourish.

Don't you think that by limiting foreign companies' products the local companies would operate less efficiently since there is no competition? I think I was taught about this in my econ 101 class. Why does it work differently this time?

> Don't you think that by limiting foreign companies' products the local companies would operate less efficiently since there is no competition?

There is no foreign competition but Chinese companies still have competition from other Chinese companies.

Even if the Chinese market is less efficient because competition is limited to China: The goal is to foster a healthy national economy, create knowledge, and most importantly keep total control over technologies and communication channels.

Re: From imitation to innovation: How China became a tech superpower

#60

Post by hownottowrite »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #55
hownottowrite wrote: post #42

The article is missing the real step one: Education. From "China’s rise as a major contributor to science and technology"[0]: "China is now the world’s distant leader in bachelor’s degrees in Science and Engineering, with 1.1 million in 2010, more than four times the US figure. This large disparity reflects not only China’s dramatic expansion in higher education since 1999 but also a much higher percentage of student…

Many of those CS degrees outside of first and second tier universities are not very good, however. When every foreign language unverisity and teacher’s college (there called normal universities) has a CS department, there is definitely something going on.

> Many of those CS degrees outside of first and second tier universities are not very good, however.

Sure, but even if half the total degrees are substandard that's still twice the output of the United States. It's a wave that will only pay more dividends over time.

> When every foreign language unverisity and teacher’s college (there called normal universities) has a CS department, there is definitely something going on.

The same could be said for every liberal arts college in the United States which suddenly has a brand new science/math/CS center plopped onto campus.

Anyway, I'd recommend giving the study a read. The authors discuss these issues as well as a few others. Problems aside, there's a clear trend developing.

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