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China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

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Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a meta-note, this seems to apply to every aspect of Chinese surveillance/repression. Every time someone here reports that a website is blocked in China, someone else will reply that it works for them.

Seems to me there is a large public relations push to normalize their authoritarianism in the view of Westerners. Then you hear about bloggers being imprisoned for pointing out corruption according to the government’s own definitions. China’s authoritarianism looks attractive when it’s about infrastructure and efficiency, but the underside of it, the collective silencing and destruction of debate, the “blank spots” i…

>Seems to me there is a large public relations push to normalize their authoritarianism in the view of Westerners.

So, bigger than the push to make it appear worse than it is?

Because that has been a tactic with any competing nation/enemy du jour of the west for over a century...

Not to mention that everything is judged with US-norms and interpreted through US-preferences in all those articles (aside and above the interpretation through their national interests) -- as if, e.g. rugged individualism and puritanism -derived principles is some universal law and e.g. a collectivist spirit, or some religious-derived norms, or other such cultural ways, are by default bad.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#182
post #3

>> For the next 10 months, web access would be almost nonexistent in Xinjiang, a vast region larger than Texas with a population of more than 20 million. It was one of the most widespread, longest internet shutdowns ever. SpaceX's plans to launch their first set of satellites for their Starlink broadband constellation[1]. Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions, although the Chinese…

Former satellite telecom engineer here, have built high capacity two way C, Ku, X and Ka band earth stations. Two big problems with China: 1. Smuggle rooftop CPE into country? Manufacture domestically in grey market factories? 2. Very low cost for Chinese law enforcement, in Xinjiang, to buy and use portable spectrum analyzers to locate the Tx frequencies coming from a 30cm-50cm sized rooftop phase array antenna, aim…

Question: Would it be similarly easy to locate such a transmitter if it were on an exceptionally busy ISM band?

Also, what if upstream transmission rate was reduced?

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because keeping a large diverse country stable and safe is very difficult, and a failure causes enormous tragedy. The approach that works to keep the US stable does not always work well in other countries. To keep the billion people who live in China safe from civil war and rampant terrorism is already a great achievement -- even it comes at the expense of some nice things such as human rights. In fact, China manages…

The ruling ethnic elite (and fully 91.51% of the population as of 2010) are Han Chinese, and you could say they enforce somewhat of an ethnostate. Foreigners cannot become citizens even if they marry a native Chinese and contribute to their economy.

Pretty strong cases have been made that the Han Chinese ethnicity is an invention. This makes some sense given China's pre-CCP plethora of wildly different languages, and quite distinct appearance differences between provinces. That's hard to explain if one adopts the "majority ethnicity" view. Of course, from a practical perspective, once everyone believes the myth then it's a de facto reality

https://www.hrichina.org/en/content/4573 http://foreignpolicy.com/2010/04/13/the-myth-of-one-china/

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a meta-note, this seems to apply to every aspect of Chinese surveillance/repression. Every time someone here reports that a website is blocked in China, someone else will reply that it works for them.

Seems to me there is a large public relations push to normalize their authoritarianism in the view of Westerners. Then you hear about bloggers being imprisoned for pointing out corruption according to the government’s own definitions. China’s authoritarianism looks attractive when it’s about infrastructure and efficiency, but the underside of it, the collective silencing and destruction of debate, the “blank spots” i…

I wonder if that kind of authoritarianism can already be qualified as fascism. Declared total unity of state, people and industry? Check. Militarism? Check. Indifference to violence? Check. Concentration camps, mass political persecutions, expansionism? All there.

When does it cross the line from bad to Hitler?

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#185

I have personally lived long term both in the US and China (I am French) And I would choose China to raise my kids over the US any days. Yes there are repression in China, it would be a lie to deny it, yes I have been around a girl who smoked weed, she was 28-30 years old and she literally had to hide behind a car because it's completely forbidden, highly punished and another citizen can report you. But China has man…

As a French citizen, that's a very big risk to take. I speak from experience when I say one tiny mistake (that would be a non-issue in most Western countries) is all it takes to get kicked out of the country, after which they'll deny your Visa for years with no obligation to tell you why. It doesn't matter if you own a house in China, it doesn't matter if you've invested hundreds of thousands/millions throughout your…

> not going to the local police station whenever you stayed at a hotel/switched apartment/stayed at your friends/partners place

I've never heard of this and I grew up in China. Can you provide a source?

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#186
post #177

I have personally lived long term both in the US and China (I am French) And I would choose China to raise my kids over the US any days. Yes there are repression in China, it would be a lie to deny it, yes I have been around a girl who smoked weed, she was 28-30 years old and she literally had to hide behind a car because it's completely forbidden, highly punished and another citizen can report you. But China has man…

> Unlike France and the US, the government is corrupt but they don't vote any law against Chinese themselves It's not very logical. By definition, the word "Law" means: a system of rules that are created and enforced through social or governmental institutions to regulate behavior[0]. Who's behavior? Trees? Mountains? No, people's behavior, people who living inside the territory of the country. So, the right way to p…

I think the user you're responding to has it exactly backwards. Laws are more strictly applied to local Chinese than to tourists and expats. The general idea seems to be "these laowai are full of vices and they will do what they do, but we must instill and uphold a strict moral code for our own people to maintain a healthy society"

(I'm of course speaking of petty law breaking such as smoking weed or jaywalking. If you steal or defraud someone you'll see your visa disappear faster than sin)

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#187
post #3

>> For the next 10 months, web access would be almost nonexistent in Xinjiang, a vast region larger than Texas with a population of more than 20 million. It was one of the most widespread, longest internet shutdowns ever. SpaceX's plans to launch their first set of satellites for their Starlink broadband constellation[1]. Uighers may be the first population to sign up for satellite subscriptions, although the Chinese…

Former satellite telecom engineer here, have built high capacity two way C, Ku, X and Ka band earth stations. Two big problems with China: 1. Smuggle rooftop CPE into country? Manufacture domestically in grey market factories? 2. Very low cost for Chinese law enforcement, in Xinjiang, to buy and use portable spectrum analyzers to locate the Tx frequencies coming from a 30cm-50cm sized rooftop phase array antenna, aim…

It will be as easy as locating an illegal VSAT station, which are countless in big cities there.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#188

Unrelated, but I'm always amazed when I hear about these massive Chinese cities for the first time. Apparently Urumqi has a population of 3.5 million.

Recently went to Xian which locals had described to be as being more of a small village feel. A mere 8m population.

Xian's only the 15th largest city in China. No big deal.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#189
post #152

I have read some stories during the year without Internet in Xinjiang. In fact people can still connect to local network then, they just disconnected the link from province level ISP to Internet. Some young mans built local websites provides movie, softwares downloads, news and bbs inside the LAN. They travels to nearest town outside Xinjiang every week by train, download new resources in net bar, bring them back in…

Wow. I love hearing about the persistence under those conditions. Reminds me a bit of what I've heard of Cuba, a semi-sneakernet setup.

I'm not local, but actually, there are many stories published by locals during that time, most of it are written in Chinese of course.

You can still found some of it by googling keyword "新疆断网", and Google Translate them if you interested to read.

In summary: In the first few days, people miss the access; Then, they built their own network, providing news, BBS, downloading and even online gaming services etc.

If they had enough time, I could assume they will build a complete alternative of China's Internet, just like what happened in the China's Internet then the access to the true Internet is limited.

But "enough time" is what they don't have, when the access been restored, most local websites are faded.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#190
post #99

So can anyone tell me why we should support what China is doing? Why should any entrepreneur or tech worker go there and support this government? How come China seems to get a free pass on human rights issues like this by western society?

Because hypocrisy, money and self-interest go hand in hand. Why does western society support Israel, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Bangladesh, and the list goes on and on. It's all self interest and mutual benefits
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