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Obesity: Drink till you drop

economist.com

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Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#31

Post by jacquesm »

wwortiz wrote: post #30
jacquesm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a cultural thing. As a European in North America you find lots of those things where the 'right' thing to do is less than obvious, and restaurant etiquette is one of those. Americans visiting Europe would find themselves in a similar situation if they asked for a doggie bag. Most places wouldn't even be prepared to handle such a request. But then again, the portions are so much smaller that a request of that nat…

Is it uncommon for European restaurants to bring out another plate/silverware if asked, or just considered bad manners? I'm genuinely curious, but perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying. Also I'm curious if doggy bags imply the same connotations where you are from, as here they imply simply bringing leftovers home, although it has been a very long time since I've heard the term doggy bag and am more accustomed…

> Is it uncommon for European restaurants to bring out another plate/silverware if asked, or just considered bad manners?

I'd hate to try :) I've never ever seen anybody do that, except for maybe asking for an extra spoon to share a desert.

> Also I'm curious if doggy bags imply the same connotations where you are from, as here they imply simply bringing leftovers home, although it has been a very long time since I've heard the term doggy bag and am more accustomed to people asking if anyone wants a box or their leftovers wrapped up.

I think that part of the stigma is that eating out is somewhat of a luxury in Europe whereas in America it is extremely normal. Prices are in general much higher here when eating out, the menus more varied (no thousand island dressing here, no burgers (at least, not in most places)) and people tend to dress up before going out.

A 'doggy bag' simply does not go well with the image of going out when you look at it like that. So I think that it's as much custom as it is setting and social stigma, if you asked for a doggy bag in a restaurant your peers would assume that you are either broke or very very stingy.

Or that you had a dog :)

Of course this is just my experience, maybe other Europeans can add / detract from that by giving their perspective, this is mine.

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#32

Post by araneae »

shrikant wrote: post #20

Me and the significant other have known this for quite a while. Frankly, I'm REALLY surprised that this wasn't an established scientific result. The way it works IMHO is not too obscure - water fills you up and gives you the impression of being 'full' earlier, so you tend to reduce your regular food intake. Feeling 'fuller' equates to being satiated for a lot of people (including me), so the tendency to chow out at r…

Indeed. There's a reason ballerina dancers eat tissue paper.

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#33

Post by tommizzle »

WilliamLP wrote: post #26
tommizzle wrote: post #19

While I completely agree with the gist of the article, Dr Davys counter-argument is terrible: "It is possible that the water displaced sugary drinks in the hydrated group, but this does not explain the weight loss because the calories associated with any fizzy drinks consumed by the other group had to fall within the daily limits." There is such a thing as good calories and bad calories - obviously getting your calor…

> obviously getting your calories from healthy fats such as olive oil and avacados is going to be a lot more beneficial to your weight in the long run than getting your calories from sugary fizzy drinks such as coca-cola. It may be "obvious", but I'm not sure if that's true!

I would say it's pretty common knowledge in the fitness world. I think this quote explains the concept nicely:

"The second rule of fat loss is that healthy fat does not make you fat. Excess calories, in particular excess from the wrong calories makes you fat. This is a very hard concept to get across. People still believe that fat makes you fat and will argue without you to the grave while they eat a gallon of low fat ice cream that has the power to make you fat over night.

...

Lets get back to fat. Low fat diets equal low testosterone and low progesterone production. Both are necessary for men and women for optimal fat loss and well-being.

Without adequate levels of fat in your diet (30% of calories), you will not have adequate levels of testosterone. Without adequate levels of testosterone you will not be able to build muscle. Building muscle is the most effective way to get rid of fat and keep it off. " - Mike Mahler

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#34

Post by evanchen »

The problem with "solutions" like this is that they don't really fix the problem where it lies. Weight gain is attributed to caloric surplus, there's no two ways about it.

Drinking water before a meal will help you feel a little fuller and ultimately, eat less. People ignorant to nutrition will begin to use this as a free pass to eating even more poorly.

If you really take a step back and look at this, what they are suggesting is filling up with less calorie dense foods (water being the ultimate example), preferably with a high satiety index (here's a list: http://www.mendosa.com/satiety.htm).

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#35

Post by mgkimsal »

b3b0p wrote: post #28

It would be interesting if restaurants cut the portion sizes in half, kept the same prices, but used higher quality products and better care in preparing. I guess it's wishful thinking.

Just a random anecdote here on portion sizes:

Piper's in Raleigh has a really good fish n chips plate - my wife loves it. However, it's an insanely huge portion. $13.95, but it's more than enough for two people (she split it with a friend last time and they couldn't finish it). Dropping the sizes in half and making it $10.95 would still be a good value (well, in line with the rest of their portions, FWICT). The waitress has said that most people don't finish the fish because it's too much - it just ends up being thrown out. You can't easily reheat fried fish the next day as a leftover (well, I can't - any tips?)

Getting Chinese takeaway always felt a bit expensive (for the good stuff around us). However, we've cut back on portion sizes, and my wife's dinner is enough for dinner, then lunch, then usually another dinner, all from an $11 menu item. In those terms, it's a good deal. But if you tried to eat it all in one sitting, it's too much.

I just do not understand restaurant portion sizings.

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#36

Post by iuytrfghj »

mgkimsal wrote: post #35
b3b0p wrote: post #28

It would be interesting if restaurants cut the portion sizes in half, kept the same prices, but used higher quality products and better care in preparing. I guess it's wishful thinking.

Just a random anecdote here on portion sizes: Piper's in Raleigh has a really good fish n chips plate - my wife loves it. However, it's an insanely huge portion. $13.95, but it's more than enough for two people (she split it with a friend last time and they couldn't finish it). Dropping the sizes in half and making it $10.95 would still be a good value (well, in line with the rest of their portions, FWICT). The waitr…

>I just do not understand restaurant portion sizings.

The food is a very small part of their costs. They can double the amount of food for a cost of $1, charge an extra $2 AND have many more customers for their great value!

It's like selling home PCs with a 1Tb drive, most users don't need it but it only costs them $5 more than a 500Gb drive.

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#37

Post by philwelch »

araneae wrote: post #32
shrikant wrote: post #20

Me and the significant other have known this for quite a while. Frankly, I'm REALLY surprised that this wasn't an established scientific result. The way it works IMHO is not too obscure - water fills you up and gives you the impression of being 'full' earlier, so you tend to reduce your regular food intake. Feeling 'fuller' equates to being satiated for a lot of people (including me), so the tendency to chow out at r…

Indeed. There's a reason ballerina dancers eat tissue paper.

Seriously? I want to know more.

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#38

Post by WilliamLP »

tommizzle wrote: post #33
WilliamLP wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> obviously getting your calories from healthy fats such as olive oil and avacados is going to be a lot more beneficial to your weight in the long run than getting your calories from sugary fizzy drinks such as coca-cola. It may be "obvious", but I'm not sure if that's true!

I would say it's pretty common knowledge in the fitness world. I think this quote explains the concept nicely: "The second rule of fat loss is that healthy fat does not make you fat. Excess calories, in particular excess from the wrong calories makes you fat. This is a very hard concept to get across. People still believe that fat makes you fat and will argue without you to the grave while they eat a gallon of low fa…

You're preaching to the choir here. What you're not going to be able to demonstrate is that, in laboratory controlled conditions where literally every calorie is counted by a scientist, and all variables are taken into account (e.g. hyrdation levels) that one kind of calorie leads to a "metabolic advantage" over another and lead to more or less fat loss or gain given adequate protein. This would be a kind of holy grail discovery.

What is undeniable is that any study where people self-count their caloric intake has a ton of potential problems which have been demonstrated over and over again. People are notoriously terrible at counting calories in what they eat.

It is true that sugars have certain metabolic effects, for example with insulin, that will make you hungrier and crave more. This makes it true that they should be avoided. Basically I think we're on the same page if you're willing to scratch the "obviously".

Another point is that the amount that doing weight training raises your metabolism is extremely overrated. I don't have the hard data in front of me but I think if you look up how many more calories you burn by gaining a pound of muscle, you will be shocked that it isn't that much. This is one of those "everybody knows" facts about fitness that everyone believes but isn't really backed up very well.

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#39

Post by WilliamLP »

carbocation wrote: post #12
rmanocha wrote: post #8

Not sure about the "science" behind this, but this technique has definitely worked for me. I've been drinking ~3 litres of water daily for the last year - and along with other changes in my lifestyle, have lost ~65lbs in that time. If for no other reason, drinking that water reduces my urges for fizzy drinks - which helps a lot. Additionally, as others have said - reducing the amount you eat, in whatever way that wor…

The "science" behind this is a randomized, controlled trial. Why the scare quotes?

For one thing, though scientific, any conclusion is going to be rather soft if it's drawn from one study where human beings self-report calories, and where the difference in weight (2kg) is within the variance of how much our weight can vary within a single day.

Re: Obesity: Drink till you drop

#40

Post by maukdaddy »

mgkimsal wrote: post #35
b3b0p wrote: post #28

It would be interesting if restaurants cut the portion sizes in half, kept the same prices, but used higher quality products and better care in preparing. I guess it's wishful thinking.

Just a random anecdote here on portion sizes: Piper's in Raleigh has a really good fish n chips plate - my wife loves it. However, it's an insanely huge portion. $13.95, but it's more than enough for two people (she split it with a friend last time and they couldn't finish it). Dropping the sizes in half and making it $10.95 would still be a good value (well, in line with the rest of their portions, FWICT). The waitr…

> You can't easily reheat fried fish the next day as a leftover (well, I can't - any tips?)

For things like that I suggest a toaster oven. Put it on 350-400 or so and put the food in long enough to get hot. Works well for most fried foods, pizza, and other things that don't microwave well.

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