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China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

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Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because keeping a large diverse country stable and safe is very difficult, and a failure causes enormous tragedy. The approach that works to keep the US stable does not always work well in other countries. To keep the billion people who live in China safe from civil war and rampant terrorism is already a great achievement -- even it comes at the expense of some nice things such as human rights. In fact, China manages…

I always am humbled to think about the many massive wars in China that no one in the West has ever heard of—for example, the Punti Hakka Clan Wars in the 19th century which killed a million people, which is around the same number that died in the US Civil War. Similarly, in one year, 1858, the amount of opium imported into China was the same as the entire production for the decade around 2010. And in the Great Leap F…

I agree with you completely.

In the earlier years, CCP was responsible for some of the worst suffering that the 20th century has seen; worse, it was totally without purpose. It was not even helping some people survive at the expense of others, it was just destroying millions of lives to satisfy the egos and delusions of a few leaders who were especially good at brainwashing people. Those leaders deserve to burn in hell for eternity, in my opinion.

Today's CCP, despite the continuity in the government, is very far from doing that. Of course, it wants to stay in power, as almost every government does. But I do not know whether, in staying in power, it's also helping hold back the gates of death or suffering.

As you say, the evidence so far, limited as it is, is slightly positive. China moved from one of the poorest large countries, with a horrible past, to a place where many (although not all) people are happy to return after they travelled the world.

But in truth, we'll never know for sure, since we can't see the alternate timeline of history. In a few decades, we'll merely have a bit more evidence one way or the other.

However, I do see a lot of moderate to terrible disasters that befall other countries that try to change their system of government. So I personally have a very high degree of concern about the risk that comes with such changes.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#162
post #154

"Western viewpoint" is creating more problems than solutions and behind that there is fear of capitalist losing business and control over world affairs. Its not human rights in China or anything else, if that was the case the recent wars in Middle East might not have erupted and have been diffused with much sense of urgency and political acumen than supplying arms to rebels and wipe-out humanity on their way of inter…

please, that’s not what this is about.

this is an issue of individual liberty, and the freedom from oppression/being forced to live under someone else’s rules.

these are desirable qualities for any self aware individual. no human, chinese or otherwise, wants to live without this concept of freedom.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.) Chinese government did this to itself, with the 1.3B population. China only had 500M in 1950, but the communist government condemned birth control and banned imports of contraceptives. 2.) At some point, you can't keep using the excuse "but 1 Billion people" for doing disgusting things. When you harvest prisoners' organs. When you imprison 120,000 minorities in camps. When you build an artificial island to the ho…

What's so wrong with building an artificial island?

In today's world, many governments use nationalism to help control their domestic situation. China, Japan, Philippines, Malaysia, Vietnam all do that; and one way in which they do that, is by claiming some territories in the South China Sea. Other nations (like the US, Russia, etc.) are concerned about who will end up winning the argument: everyone wants their regional allies to win, and their adversaries to lose.

All these claims are just a boring old geopolitical game, which has been played over land control for as long as sovereign states existed (and it was modified only slightly from the tribal times).

There's nothing "fair" or "right" or "reasonable" about these games. It might seem as a zero-sum game since only one country can usually own a given piece of land. But actually, it's not zero-sum: each government increases its domestic popularity by yelling loudly about how the evil neighbors are taking away what "rightfully" belongs to their own nation.

If you want to read more about this, I can recommend these articles:

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/risky-business-south-...

https://www.lawfareblog.com/south-china-sea-dispute-brief-hi...

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#164
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently traveled to China and went to a fairly remote area dominated by Uyghurs and didn't see anything that would indicate that level of oppression. They seemed quite free to do what they wanted to between themselves (such as buying a knife) although I imagine their political rights wouldn't be very strong.

Repression in Urumqi will likely be an order of magnitude more intense than in smaller municipalities around the province. The CCP is still working off their own revolutionary playbook from the 30s and 40s, when they effected change through organization. The "right to assemble" is one of the most feared rights in China. Enforcing QR codes on knives is one thing. The real weapon is forbidding all social media apps exc…

People can still use other apps, though it's getting tougher, but there are still other options, and if people really care more about privacy they may get a proxy and use Telegram.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1.) Chinese government did this to itself, with the 1.3B population. China only had 500M in 1950, but the communist government condemned birth control and banned imports of contraceptives. 2.) At some point, you can't keep using the excuse "but 1 Billion people" for doing disgusting things. When you harvest prisoners' organs. When you imprison 120,000 minorities in camps. When you build an artificial island to the ho…

What's so wrong with building an artificial island?

It is built on disputed territory in an attempt to claim sovereignty.

http://www.newsweek.com/china-south-china-sea-islands-build-...

https://www.digitaltrends.com/cool-tech/chinas-artificial-is...

https://www.cnn.com/2017/03/28/asia/south-china-sea-islands-...

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#166
post #154

"Western viewpoint" is creating more problems than solutions and behind that there is fear of capitalist losing business and control over world affairs. Its not human rights in China or anything else, if that was the case the recent wars in Middle East might not have erupted and have been diffused with much sense of urgency and political acumen than supplying arms to rebels and wipe-out humanity on their way of inter…

please, that’s not what this is about. this is an issue of individual liberty, and the freedom from oppression/being forced to live under someone else’s rules. these are desirable qualities for any self aware individual. no human, chinese or otherwise, wants to live without this concept of freedom.

I understand and I agree with you on that matter. But do you think that west is not part of that oppression by imposing sanction of various countries and resulting in degraded quality of life ? Don't you think they armed rebels that resulted in much chaos and death and inhumanity ? If someone is dead there is no talk of humanity and liberty. Liberty starts with peace. I understand that there are certain area where China and other countries can improve but other countries should not use that as pretext for their political and economical agenda. And indeed there is much more lot space and areas for west has to workout given they have made such tremendous scientific and economical development.West's actions don't reflect their achievements.

And another point is liberty given by democracy is useless if that does not translates to wishes of the populace and that is happening right now in West and US. Its there but has no effect

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently traveled to China and went to a fairly remote area dominated by Uyghurs and didn't see anything that would indicate that level of oppression. They seemed quite free to do what they wanted to between themselves (such as buying a knife) although I imagine their political rights wouldn't be very strong.

I've been to Xinjiang also (Urumuqi and other parts of Beijiang). I didn't see a Uyghur get beat up or anything, but this was (a) way back in 2006 before the riots of 2009 and (b) I don't think we would notice much as tourists even IF there was something going on. Beijing used to have a lot of Uyghurs before the 2008 Olympics, but they were mostly all driven out and not allowed to return after the event.

"Beijing used to have a lot of Uyghurs before the 2008 Olympics, but they were mostly all driven out and not allowed to return after the event." Any source on that? You can still easily see Uyghurs' barbecue stalls and restaurants in many cities including Beijing. Though security check on stations has strengthen since 2009 riot.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#168
post #71

On the plus side, I just visited China last month and never felt safer. Before you would wear your backpack on the front of your chest when taking public transportation for fear of thieves. Now, with surveillance everywhere (and random ID checks at subways), you can freely wear your backpack on your back where it belongs without fear of theft.

That's the general feeling of the population as well -- as explained by my Chinese friends.

They're okay with the surveillance if it's going to prevent terrorist attacks or even more localised crime.

And most of the citizens couldn't even be bothered about losing access to non-Chinese Internet websites. The Chinese ones are good enough or sometimes even better, tailored to their tastes.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#169
I have personally lived long term both in the US and China (I am French)

And I would choose China to raise my kids over the US any days. Yes there are repression in China, it would be a lie to deny it, yes I have been around a girl who smoked weed, she was 28-30 years old and she literally had to hide behind a car because it's completely forbidden, highly punished and another citizen can report you.

But China has many advantages, public services are awesome. Unlike France and the US, the government is corrupt but they don't vote any law against Chinese themselves. It's a country which still have some kind of moral traditions and values so far.

And last but not least I prefer government's surveillance than people's surveillance. It's far more easier to free think in China than it is in the US and France. The latter countries are closer to the sesame credit than the latter.

Re: China's Xinjiang surveillance is the dystopian future nobody wants

#170
What the article is forgetting is the severity of the conflict with its potent mix of race, religion and by-gone nationality.

To me the parallels to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang are the conflicts involving the Rohingyas in Myanmar, the "deep south" in Thailand, and maybe the "pirates" around Malaysia and Philippines.

These conflicts are all being handled with far heavier hand than what China is doing in Xinjiang.

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