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What they say about age is true

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Re: What they say about age is true

#11

Post by evo_9 »

This is really a factor if you make a factor, or better yet - let it dictate who you are. If you think you are 'too old' then you probably are. But what if you don't think about age because it's silly and instead you continue to improve yourself, learn the latest tech and generally make yourself someone worthy of being in a startup? Granted there are other factors such as financial/family obligations (mortgage, college tuition for the kids, food on the table, etc) that might make not ideal for a start-up - but age shouldn't be something that enters the equations (well up until I point though I have no idea what that 'point' would be).

I know I've thought that this ageism thing could be a factor. Hell I was nervous 'admitting' I am 43 in another post and when I signed up for the start-school (like it's wrong or something). But the thing is, because I don't think about age, and because I continue to learn and grow, it's never come up. It probably helps that I played a sport at a near pro level and know how to 'train' and consequently look 34 instead of 43; but the reality is we influence ourselves more than we realize (it's a internal mental game thing). Bottom line is if you want it bad enough you make it happen.

Re: What they say about age is true

#12

Post by maddalab »

pg wrote: post #5

Ironically while arguing one side of the case he becomes an example supporting the other. He sounds so grumpy and closed minded. Who'd want to hire him? His thesis that technology hasn't changed is false in any case. E.g. while the fundamentals of algorithms haven't changed, that sort of knowledge is less central than it used to be; for better or worse, software development seems to be evolving into something where y…

The grumpy-ness aside which is difficult to judge in an unbiased manner and every one for himself, the question is still relevant, and something that I can relate to tho not being in the affected age segment.

I look around at my last 2 work places and have yet to meet more than the occasional mid-40s professional who is in positions of technical ownership. Most of them have moved into positions of management (paper pushers for the most part), architects (whatever that means) or moved out (to whatever it is they do, hopefully something interesting).

Those who did move into management and position involving architecture were not necessarily more technically proficient than those who moved out, with a history of accomplishments that identified them as suitable for those positions. In most cases it was just a case of who one was acquainted with. Put simply the technical field is not a meritocracy beyond a certain watermark.

I have yet to hear a cogent argument on why folks in their late 40s or early 50s are not adequately represented in programming positions start ups or otherwise. What is unique about programming as a practice that make it unsuitable for professional beyond a certain age?

In most professions that have similar age barriers to early exit (sports comes to mind immediately) one case expect to be compensated handsomely for the short while that one has is holding on to the position, this is not the case with programming.

Leaving aside the argument that most programming positions do not require any education because they are no longer "creative" functions just functions of component "assembly" and as such do not require the experience gained from years of practice, what changes does the industry require to undertake to effective use the experience of folks who have worked hard to gain it?

I certainly do not have the answers.

Re: What they say about age is true

#13

Post by brlewis »

tonystubblebine wrote: post #9
pg wrote: post #5

Ironically while arguing one side of the case he becomes an example supporting the other. He sounds so grumpy and closed minded. Who'd want to hire him? His thesis that technology hasn't changed is false in any case. E.g. while the fundamentals of algorithms haven't changed, that sort of knowledge is less central than it used to be; for better or worse, software development seems to be evolving into something where y…

Well, Dave Winer brings his own personal baggage that's not related to general ageism. But maybe other experienced people just need some help presenting their knowledge in a way that's easier for young people to take. It's really easy to come off as grumpy and entitled otherwise.

Making something -- a web app or free software -- would be a good way to present knowledge, except that people who make things still need some help presenting what they've made.

Re: What they say about age is true

#14

Post by DanielBMarkham »

I think if you feel the need to defend your ability by blogging you've already lost the battle.

Just go do it. Then the argument is moot.

Startup entry costs get lower and lower everyday. All of those zillions of barely-useful web apps that everybody is funding provide a nifty base to launch and begin interacting with a market. It's really not the same business environment as it was just ten years ago. That's not meant as an argument for age discrimination, just an acknowledgment that things have changed. The best guy to find is some graybeard who kept the best of the old stuff and is also learning the new stuff.

Unfortunately the temptation in tech is to rest on your laurels and try to coast on using natural intelligence as opposed to continuously learning new things. Sometimes this gets kids right out of college -- take the corporate 9-5 job and the punch-the-clock mentality. Sometimes it takes longer. But once this attitude begins the logical conclusion is blog articles like this.

Re: What they say about age is true

#15

Post by pg »

maddalab wrote: post #12
pg wrote: post #5

Ironically while arguing one side of the case he becomes an example supporting the other. He sounds so grumpy and closed minded. Who'd want to hire him? His thesis that technology hasn't changed is false in any case. E.g. while the fundamentals of algorithms haven't changed, that sort of knowledge is less central than it used to be; for better or worse, software development seems to be evolving into something where y…

The grumpy-ness aside which is difficult to judge in an unbiased manner and every one for himself, the question is still relevant, and something that I can relate to tho not being in the affected age segment. I look around at my last 2 work places and have yet to meet more than the occasional mid-40s professional who is in positions of technical ownership. Most of them have moved into positions of management (paper p…

The answer may be related to the early age at which mathematicians seem to peak.

Another factor is the rate of change in technology. Mere experience may be an obstacle there. When you start knowing nothing and pick a technology to learn, you naturally tend to pick the newest one. Whereas for an old person, learning new technologies is something you do out of duty as much as eagerness. An old person learning new technologies is keeping current. A young person learning the same new technology is learning to build stuff, which is much more exciting.

Re: What they say about age is true

#16

Post by nostrademons »

neilk wrote: post #8
pg wrote: post #5

Ironically while arguing one side of the case he becomes an example supporting the other. He sounds so grumpy and closed minded. Who'd want to hire him? His thesis that technology hasn't changed is false in any case. E.g. while the fundamentals of algorithms haven't changed, that sort of knowledge is less central than it used to be; for better or worse, software development seems to be evolving into something where y…

Could we use this to make a new heuristic for knowing when one is being closed-minded? You're good at coming up with those sorts of things. The "X is exactly the same as Y" is one, I think. I got in an argument with someone who asserted that Twitter was exactly the same as the old Unix utility 'talk'. Of course, how do you distinguish between obviously boring reinventions and stuff that really will have an impact?

My Intro Philosophy professor phrased it like this: "If you want to sound smart in front of your friends, make a distinction."

Our judgments of how intelligent people are usually come from how many relevant details they are able to see that we would otherwise have missed. So someone who asserts that Twitter is exactly the same as 'talk' is dumb. Someone who asserts that Twitter is exactly the same as 'talk', except that it's on the web, and it can broadcast to multiple people, and it's limited to 140 characters, and the social norms surrounding its use are different, and it's frequently used to share URLs that are automatically shortened, and that this practice is controversial because it breaks the decentralized nature of the web, sounds slightly more intelligent.

Re: What they say about age is true

#17

Post by rajbot »

Dave Winer is the guy that famously ranted he would never support the new JSON Facebook API: "To Facebook the answer must be no"!

Then he when everyone laughed at him, he silently edited his rant to appear a bit more sane [1].. It's not that he wouldn't support the json api, it is that he couldn't, because the programming environment he wrote doesn't have a json library.

It's 2010. Would you hire a programmer that who can't parse JSON?

Edit: Even better.. would you hire a programmer who, when asked to design a json api, refused to do so and instead yelled at you about the superiority of XML-RPC?

[1] http://www.scripting.com/stories/2010/04/21/tofacebooktheans...

Re: What they say about age is true

#18

Post by pg »

neilk wrote: post #8
pg wrote: post #5

Ironically while arguing one side of the case he becomes an example supporting the other. He sounds so grumpy and closed minded. Who'd want to hire him? His thesis that technology hasn't changed is false in any case. E.g. while the fundamentals of algorithms haven't changed, that sort of knowledge is less central than it used to be; for better or worse, software development seems to be evolving into something where y…

Could we use this to make a new heuristic for knowing when one is being closed-minded? You're good at coming up with those sorts of things. The "X is exactly the same as Y" is one, I think. I got in an argument with someone who asserted that Twitter was exactly the same as the old Unix utility 'talk'. Of course, how do you distinguish between obviously boring reinventions and stuff that really will have an impact?

The problem is, some of the biggest discoveries have been of the form "x is the same as y."

Interesting question whether you could auto-detect closed mindedness though. One sign might be when people stop being surprised, or realizing that some earlier theory of theirs was wrong (which amount to the same thing).

Re: What they say about age is true

#19

Post by danilocampos »

pg wrote: post #5

Ironically while arguing one side of the case he becomes an example supporting the other. He sounds so grumpy and closed minded. Who'd want to hire him? His thesis that technology hasn't changed is false in any case. E.g. while the fundamentals of algorithms haven't changed, that sort of knowledge is less central than it used to be; for better or worse, software development seems to be evolving into something where y…

It's funny you say this. I had a nagging feeling I couldn't sort out while I was reading his post. It boils down to just what you said.

The thing with Dave Winer is that I've never read his stuff and thought "What a fascinating, energizing insight this fellow is sharing. I must read more!"

Instead, I'm left thinking he comes off as such a bitter, grouchy sourpuss who's really impressed that once upon a time he invented RSS. I mean, no kidding, look at the post previous to this one:

"And everyone was hogging every inch of the road, including my bits of the road. Lots of near-misses, cars driving in the bike lanes, and people walking and riding four a-breast."

Oh. So your blog's raison d'être truly is just to grouse about everything. That's cool, but you generally have to be really funny to make that work in the long term.

I don't think his age has anything to do with the fact that people don't want to work with him. I think people don't want to work with him because by and large, the things he has to say are neither fun nor interesting.

Re: What they say about age is true

#20

Post by bconway »

If you invest in tech companies, try bringing in some tech experience. It might push your comfort level. It also might make you much more competitive.

Let me know when you're willing to take startup pay (real startup pay, not $100K instead of $130K). Most 50 year-olds that I talk to aren't.

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