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Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

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Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#271

Post by coldtea »

zachrose wrote: post #164
coldtea wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. Still totally insignificant. A small plastic product packaging, of the kind everything comes in, has more plastic than 200 bags. https://goo.gl/images/cBp3zn Like TSA "security theater", this is "environmental theater".

So wait, shouldn’t your argument be that the plastic bag bans don’t do enough and therefore we should ban/price other kinds of plastic too?

If you read more closely, you'll find out that this already is my argument.

But I'd take it even further because even that is BS theater: industrial production of tons of crap in general should slow down. The packaging is an insignificant part of it. It just makes for nice headlines because dolphins and co get caught in it.

http://www.monbiot.com/2012/12/10/the-gift-of-death/

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#272

Post by patosai »

user5994461 wrote: post #268
patosai wrote: post #265

I think the banning of disposable utensils will be hard to adopt given how big the restaurant/night market scene is in Taiwan. I doubt many people will want to carry steel straws, chopsticks, or forks. When you want to go get food, do you want to think about what food you want? Or what utensil and container you need to bring? It's far more convenient to just provide a utensil there. There's a post on reddit which bas…

The same can be made with paper or cardboard.

I see how paper/cardboard containers would work, but how does a cardboard straw or fork work? Wooden chopsticks are mainstream but a certain thickness is required for strength, which you can't get in a straw or fork. Plus they lose strength when they get wet, so now you need to add some coating to protect them. But then that destroys recyclability which destroys the point of using such a material.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#273

Post by 794CD01 »

oh_sigh wrote: post #258
monk_e_boy wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same idea for guns. Buy back guns for $10,000 each. Soon have guns under control and off the streets. People would be breaking into each others houses to sell them.

That would cost $3T if everyone turned their guns in.

And would be a better use of the money than most other things the government does already.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#274

Post by icebraining »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #209
kodablah wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine if they threw you in jail for it. I bet you'd think even harder and we'd definitely get rid of plastic bags.

Same idea for guns. Buy back guns for $10,000 each. Soon have guns under control and off the streets. People would be breaking into each others houses to sell them.

Soon have guns under control

Or, more likely, they would make more guns to compensate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#275

Post by cimmanom »

dasv wrote: post #255
cimmanom wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's dumb for light items, absolutely. But New Yorkers tend to carry their groceries home in their hands for as far as a mile, instead of wheeling them out in carts to a car trunk and then carrying them 20 feet to the door of the house. Heavy items (liquids and canned goods and stuff like potatoes) WILL tear through plastic bags if not double bagged. The worst offenders are half gallons of milk/juice, which have shar…

At least in Europe, since the introduction of the bag surcharge, the new plastic bags are thicker and much stronger. At most, they get punctured, but I have never had one break open on me.

The grocery store I grew up shopping at (in NY) also had thicker bags, but they were still vulnerable to punctures, which would turn into tears under the wrong conditions. They used to put a paper bag (no handles) inside a plastic bag (with handles) - which turns out to be super sturdy. You could carry cannonballs in those things, except that you could feel the handles stretch out after a few blocks.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#276

Post by morsch »

dpark wrote: post #259
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thought. But the ecological (read: CO2) impact of paper bags and even cloth ones, are they clearly superior? I doubt it. Its just so dang cheap to make a WalMart bag. I see 'ban the bag!' as eco-theatre.

I cannot imagine that the ecological impact of a canvas bag that gets reused hundreds of times is higher than hundreds of plastic bags that get used once. CO2 production is also not the only impact. How much canvas is floating in the ocean and clogging up rivers?

There are studies on this topic. Here's an article: https://medium.com/stanford-magazine/paper-plastic-or-reusab...

I spent an hour or so researching the issue a long time ago and I seem to recall another study by a French supermarket chain. You need to reuse your cotton bags a lot -- hundreds of times is right -- for it to become worthwhile. Which is doable, of course.

And of course, the carbon footprint of both plastic bags as well as cotton bags varies wildly depending on the weight etc.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#277

Post by shaki-dora »

kodablah wrote: post #246
tpm wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, what would be the correct course of action to prevent stuff like fish in the sea being full of plastic from happening?

This is the type of dangerous question that leads to interminable lists of laws. If there is any problem and we don't know of another solution that works as well, let's go with the one we do know. It also happens to be the easiest and we know it will work. One wonders why the same solution doesn't apply to paper that is also a serious littering problem? And it's always this same type of appeal to emotion. If you care…

So... Your solution is "plastic isn't bad" as well as "whatabout paper?" and "don't mention the fish, because their cuteness makes us irrational" and "politicians are stupid"?

Color me unconvinced.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#278

Post by shaki-dora »

hangonhn wrote: post #230
technofiend wrote: post #10

The UK dropped to 500 million bags annually used from 7 billion after introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive action. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...

I'm one of those idiots who always forgets to bring reusable bags but since they passed similar laws in my city, I've cut down on bag use, sometimes just carrying all my items. Laws like that help because groceries no longer assume you want bags. Now you have to make a decision. So even when I do forget and have to buy a bag, I ask for the bare minimum and the clerk just stack my bag as full as possible. In the past,…

I often just take one of the empty cartons some products are shelved in.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#279

Post by kodablah »

shaki-dora wrote: post #277
kodablah wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the type of dangerous question that leads to interminable lists of laws. If there is any problem and we don't know of another solution that works as well, let's go with the one we do know. It also happens to be the easiest and we know it will work. One wonders why the same solution doesn't apply to paper that is also a serious littering problem? And it's always this same type of appeal to emotion. If you care…

So... Your solution is "plastic isn't bad" as well as "whatabout paper?" and "don't mention the fish, because their cuteness makes us irrational" and "politicians are stupid"? Color me unconvinced.

I think you misread. I didn't offer a solution. I just mentioned inconsistency and the reason why. Your reading is purposefully uncharitable and makes it impossible to have these kinds of discussions rationally.

Re: Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030

#280

Post by Dylan16807 »

monk_e_boy wrote: post #203
wastedhours wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata, but since it was introduced, I've gone from getting a new bag every day (lunch/fresh groceries), to using the same one for pretty much the last 6 months. It was a very noticeable shift to making me think about their use. Buying one because I've forgotten is a rare, and slight annoyance (the price doesn't put me off, it just changes the mental model).

Lots of my friends have said the same thing. I've always wondered why people didn't re-use bags before the charge... Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does? People didn't know plastic was bad before? They didn't care? It's great that the 5p charge works, but do we need to have a 5p charge on every bit of plastic to drive the point home?

> Saving the environment didn't matter, but 5p does?

5p doesn't do it. 5p times hundreds does.

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