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Why I Collapsed on the Job

chronicle.com

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Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#41

Post by mosselman »

shaki-dora wrote: post #28
mosselman wrote: post #3

The point the author seems to make by peppering the article with these mentions of gender seems to be that burnouts in education are gender related. These struggles are universal for all teachers, not just women. Saying 'xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. Saying no to people is hard for many pe…

The only mentions of gender in the article are the very arguments why it might be harder: "tenure-track horror stories we hear (particularly from women)" This is a reference to, among other things, sexual harassment. This is not exclusive to women, but they are the vast majority of victims. There was, for example, some upheaval in the astrophysics community, with dozens of stories of younger female researchers findin…

What I meant is that we should be skeptical about the claims made in an article that appears to be about education, posted in 'The Chronicle of Higher Education', but which in reality has a different underlying message. It feels to me as if letting gender issues seep into articles on different subjects and claiming things like 'men have it easier than women' hints at sexism. Just as letting prejudices about gender or race determine who you hire, for example.

By pointing this out I want to highlight the possibility that the author at the very least is prejudiced with regards to gender when it comes to interpreting how others go through life. Which leads me to the conclusion that the author's opinion on why people get burn outs should be taken with a grain of salt.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#42

Post by [deleted] »

dominotw wrote: post #39
shaki-dora wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only mentions of gender in the article are the very arguments why it might be harder: "tenure-track horror stories we hear (particularly from women)" This is a reference to, among other things, sexual harassment. This is not exclusive to women, but they are the vast majority of victims. There was, for example, some upheaval in the astrophysics community, with dozens of stories of younger female researchers findin…

> This doesn't imply any wrongdoing by men, especially not by specific men. In any instance where women fall short of or fail to perform as well as men external factors even amorphous ones can always be blamed. Since powerful men have been in charge of crating social conditions under which womens' identities have developed. Identity which in this case "tends to have far more doubts about their abilities and accomplis…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#43

Post by monkeynotes »

muninn_ wrote: post #33
watwut wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many women are doubly attracted to jobs where there is schedule flexibility. Female dominated jobs have less flexibility on average then male dominated jobs. It is mostly that primary caregivers after they have children need more flexibility, but original choice of occupation does not reflect this later need. > Teaching is a sweet gig if you intend to have children or want to travel. No it is not. It does not allow…

>Female dominated jobs have less flexibility on average then male dominated jobs. It is mostly that primary caregivers after they have children need more flexibility, but original choice of occupation does not reflect this later need. Source? In finance I don't see my boss making my female colleagues skip going to the dentist while letting male colleagues go. I do see the lady that sits near me leave all the time for…

> it's not your employers responsibility to pay you for not being there

While this is perhaps true in principle, in practice employers pay you not to be at work all the time. If an employer didn't pay you to be sick or take a vacation you'd probably quit.

Setting expectations about what is an acceptable work load is an ongoing conversation between employees and employers.

> I'd take the scheduling freedom and work half time and stay at home with my kids instead of being stuck in a high-pressure career - but I don't have that option.

> you should find a new job

I firmly believe that if you are not happy then you should either make life changes to meet your acceptable happiness criteria, or rethink your expectations and acquiesce. Whichever is easier. The main thing is to get happy. The only thing in life worth anything is happiness, pursue it at all costs.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#44

Post by Thriptic »

Wow the comments in here. This is not an article about the struggles of women in academia, it's an article about the struggles of being a tenured professor in general which are indeed hard. The primary problems are indeed what were pointed out. Professors end up being saddled with a lot of unpaid work that isn't research related: journal obligations, teaching, committees, operations, HR etc. This isn't even getting into another enormous time sink which went unmentioned, fundraising, which I've seen eat up substantial amounts of PI time via grant writing, industry relations, attending conferences to try to find money, contract negotiations etc.

Most experienced PIs never actually make it back into the lab once they get tenure (assuming they are lab researchers), which is a real shame. It becomes difficult to say no to all this stuff because thousands of people are fighting tooth and nail over a tiny number of positions, and they get used to slaving away with this kind of workload because it's what academia demands of you to get a tenured position. Once you have it you just keep doing what you've been doing.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#45

Post by wsy »

Lxr wrote: post #8
cyberferret wrote: post #2

Burnout doesn't differentiate between gender, race, sexual orientation, social status or the size of your bank account. Much like when I was in flying training and we were subjected to the altitude simulation pressure chamber so that we could each identify how we individually experienced the onset of hypoxia, I think it is important that everyone notates down the onset of burnout at home or at work. For me, Stage 1 i…

I agree you need to catch it early. I often wonder what the most time-efficient form of mitigation is.

The most efficient mitigation is saying no to any additional obligation, and most probably also to some current obligations you already had accepted.

Thinking about the issue in terms of time-efficiency will likely not help. It takes as long as it takes until you are back in balance, and accepting that is part of the remedy.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#47

Post by apatters »

annabellish wrote: post #31
apatters wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You come across in this comment like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant. The whole premise that women's issues are more signific…

> In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant. Please do not put words into my mouth. Somebody with a broken leg has a significant and important injury. Somebody who has had their leg t…

In triage a medic would address the dismemberment first, and only address the broken leg when time and resources permitted. So it still seems to me like you're saying men's issues are less important -- in your analogy they're comparable to a minor injury, and women's issues are comparable to one that's life-threatening.

I think that as a society we should prioritize dealing with issues that cause the greatest harm to the most vulnerable people. I don't think the gender of the victims should be the first order concern. My message to corporate America is that I'm unimpressed by diversity hiring quotas. I'd be much more impressed if they ran programs that put ex-cons of any race or gender to work in good jobs. I would favor using a company's product if they did that.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#48

Post by muninn_ »

monkeynotes wrote: post #43
muninn_ wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Female dominated jobs have less flexibility on average then male dominated jobs. It is mostly that primary caregivers after they have children need more flexibility, but original choice of occupation does not reflect this later need. Source? In finance I don't see my boss making my female colleagues skip going to the dentist while letting male colleagues go. I do see the lady that sits near me leave all the time for…

> it's not your employers responsibility to pay you for not being there While this is perhaps true in principle, in practice employers pay you not to be at work all the time. If an employer didn't pay you to be sick or take a vacation you'd probably quit. Setting expectations about what is an acceptable work load is an ongoing conversation between employees and employers. > I'd take the scheduling freedom and work ha…

I don't disagree with you here. You're right that employers pay for vacation - what I wanted to convey was that a flexible schedule is part of the workplace expectations that are set as part of the contract between employees and employers, but what I don't like is the focus on child-rearing as a battle cry for women to spend less time at work or have a more flexible schedule. Frankly, just don't have a baby then. I view my hobbies as more important than your children or your life decisions, yet I don't get a flexible schedule for those, do I? I don't get flex time off to visit an ailing family member do I? I'm fine with people getting time off for kids, but I'm not ok with it being this giant circle-jerk from HBS every other day about how women need more flex time. Don't have kids then! Work just as many hours as men do! I don't need to have it shoved in my face everyday about how you want to have your cake and eat it too.

I agree with your second point as well. I actually have a great job that I enjoy, but most men my age that I know (anecdote) are under a lot of pressure and have to stay late instead of spending time with their family or pursuing hobbies or whatever. I don't view their plight as any better or worse than that of a mother but it still exists. I feel bad for them.

And with that being said, I do like the Swedish (or is it Norway?) model of allotting time to both parents by law to split as they see fit, versus in the U.S. where it's somehow only about the well-being of mothers. The feminists in the United States have somehow turned gender equality into good stuff for women only, and I have a problem with that. Just as I have a problem with a man making more money than a woman for the same work or sexual misconduct in the workplace as alluded to by the author, though again I don't like how we brush this happening to men under the rug and throw up a "man up" anytime somebody mentions it. I've been uncomfortably sexually harassed (and didn't even realize it at the time) by and older gay man when I interned at a company, including attempting to invite me over and "pay" for me to clean his house, telling me I looked like I had a runners ass, and other related things. At the time I just thought he was a little cooky, he never was explicitly mean, but that was still sexual harassment.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#49

Post by scott_s »

mosselman wrote: post #3

The point the author seems to make by peppering the article with these mentions of gender seems to be that burnouts in education are gender related. These struggles are universal for all teachers, not just women. Saying 'xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. Saying no to people is hard for many pe…

I am baffled by your comment because she spent most of the piece talking about the gender-neutral demands on academics in research universities.
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