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Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

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Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#1

Post by johan_larson »

So, I’ve been looking at the differentials in pay for software engineers in the US and Canada. And I gotta tell you, it’s just sad. Here are some figures from Vancouver’s pitch[1] to Amazon for HQ2. Toronto pay is half of Seattle pay. No wonder half of each class from Waterloo heads south.

Market Average Annual Tech Wage Software Engineer (USD)

  Vancouver, BC — $60,107
  Toronto, ON — $62,365
  Atlanta, GA — $92,380
  Boston, MA — $103,979
  Washington, DC — $108,330
  New York, NY — $108,878
  Seattle, WA — $113,906
The question is why the difference is so very broad. Off hand, I suspect the problem is demand. Seattle has two large top-tier tech companies based locally. Toronto has nothing of the sort. There are smaller tech companies, of course, and banks and one outpost of one of the majors. But the deep need to fight for talent just isn't there.

[1] http://www.vancouvereconomic.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Vancouver-Amazon-HQ2-Proposal-Feb-2018.pdf

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#2

Post by techjuice »

It's all about supply and demand. The big tech companies want the best engineers in the world and they are willing to pay for them as their value and return on investment is what makes them the top revenue companies in the world. If the companies in Vancouver wanted top talent they would need to increase compensation in terms of salary, bonuses, stock options, etc. and insure the community around the business is modern and high tech.

As a top engineer you have the choice to go where ever the best challenges and compensation are. If you have over 10 years experience in a field and very good at what you do you should be paid exceptional well for it. As the value you bring to the company you work for makes the bottom line meter move upwards and you bring innovation and help move the company forward.

Mix a couple of teams of top quality and value engineers and you get products and services that the entire world wants to use. Talent also attracts talent, so if your company has very well known engineers working there that are very well known and respected in their fields other engineers will follow.

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#4

Post by johan_larson »

Davidbrcz wrote: post #3

Raw figures are worthless without taking into account cost of living, taxes and public services (social security, retirement plan).

If you have more accurate figures, by all means post them. But it's going to take a lot to span a gap this broad.

For what it's worth, both Vancouver and Toronto were rated as "severely unaffordable" in the 14th Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey: 2018.

https://fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/dhi2018-fcpp.pdf

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#5

Post by lucozade »

I just took a quick look at average salaries and cost of living (specifically rent) [0].

WRT average salaries, none of these seem particularly out of kilter i.e. the ratios of the salaries you quote to the average salary of the respective areas are fairly consistent.

What's interesting is cost of living. Surprisingly (to me) Vancouver and Toronto have salary to rent ratios similar to New York. Boston and Washington are better i.e. higher ratios. Seattle and especially Atlanta are much better.

Not sure what to conclude from this but it's quite interesting, at least to me.

[0] https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living I have absolutely no idea how good this data is.

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#6

Post by xstartup »

The job is just not same.

In the big company where my bro worked had its best employees sent to HQ so that they could pay them more.

The guys who got employed at satellite offices could never directly get employed at the HQ.

Rest of the small companies have no choice but to pay more to get any talent.

I think big companies have their HQ in those expensive areas because their top guys prefer that for networking purpose. Most of the time a city is established as a hub for X and it's difficult to change that.

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#7

Post by spoonie »

johan_larson wrote: post #4
Davidbrcz wrote: post #3

Raw figures are worthless without taking into account cost of living, taxes and public services (social security, retirement plan).

If you have more accurate figures, by all means post them. But it's going to take a lot to span a gap this broad. For what it's worth, both Vancouver and Toronto were rated as "severely unaffordable" in the 14th Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey: 2018. https://fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/dhi2018-fcpp.pdf

You can consider things like the cost of health care (usually moot as big companies in the US will pay for all of your insurance costs), and education for your kids. What’s the tuition difference between top tier schools in the US and Canada? What about primary school? I hear many people in the US pay to send their kids to private primary and secondary schools. If you are raising a family in the US those are lots of extra ancillary costs that are higher than in Canada.

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#8

Post by Davidbrcz »

johan_larson wrote: post #4
Davidbrcz wrote: post #3

Raw figures are worthless without taking into account cost of living, taxes and public services (social security, retirement plan).

If you have more accurate figures, by all means post them. But it's going to take a lot to span a gap this broad. For what it's worth, both Vancouver and Toronto were rated as "severely unaffordable" in the 14th Annual Demographia International Housing Affordability Survey: 2018. https://fcpp.org/wp-content/uploads/dhi2018-fcpp.pdf

No, I don't have them and I don't even know where to begin with as I don't know how many expenses/services work whether in the US or in Canada.

I'm just pointing out that comparing only raw figures is not relevant.

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#9

Post by mchannon »

Part of this difference is also the fluctuation in exchange rates.

Around 2014, 1 CAD was worth about 1 USD, but since then, the loonie has plummeted in value relative to the greenback.

That doesn't account for the entire difference, but it does account for some of it.

Re: Canadian software engineers paid peanuts

#10

Post by parliament32 »

Seems to be a combination of cost-of-living and demand. Consider the following cost-of-living comparison between Vancouver and Seattle:

Consumer Prices in Seattle, WA are 20.02% higher than in Vancouver

Consumer Prices Including Rent in Seattle, WA are 22.54% higher than in Vancouver

Rent Prices in Seattle, WA are 26.38% higher than in Vancouver

Restaurant Prices in Seattle, WA are 19.51% higher than in Vancouver

Groceries Prices in Seattle, WA are 21.84% higher than in Vancouver

(https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/comparison.jsp)

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