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Why I Collapsed on the Job

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Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#31

Post by annabellish »

apatters wrote: post #19
annabellish wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. It isn't a competition. Everyone's experiences are valid and correct. That women, on average, face the problems of (profession) plus the problems of being a woman in (profession). This doesn't mean that men don't have problems, that their problems are somehow…

You come across in this comment like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too. In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant. The whole premise that women's issues are more signific…

> In the first paragraph you say that everyone's issues are "valid," but in the second you say women's issues are more "significant." What does it even mean to say that men's issues are valid but not significant? It sounds like you're still writing off men's issues as unimportant.

Please do not put words into my mouth. Somebody with a broken leg has a significant and important injury. Somebody who has had their leg torn off has a _more_ significant injury. This does not mean anybody is suggesting a broken leg is not awful, nor that we as a society should not do something about broken legs.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#32

Post by annabellish »

mosselman wrote: post #20
annabellish wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. It isn't a competition. Everyone's experiences are valid and correct. That women, on average, face the problems of (profession) plus the problems of being a woman in (profession). This doesn't mean that men don't have problems, that their problems are somehow…

"It isn't a competition." and "...women generally, on average, face more and more significant issues"? Double standards aside, that is exactly my point. It isn't a competition and it isn't fruitful to talk about gender when describing the struggles of people in a profession unless those struggles are directly related to gender. Which in this case they clearly aren't. I think reducing every problem, in this case getti…

It _isn't_ a competition. There is no "more valid and correct", and I did not suggest that there was - in fact, I directly stated the opposite multiple times.

Just because a worse thing exists does not make something not bad. The world is allowed to be made out of shades of grey.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#33

Post by muninn_ »

watwut wrote: post #29
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think women are disproportionately attracted to jobs where the mission is people focused and caring focused. Many women are doubly attracted to jobs where there is schedule flexibility. Teaching is a sweet gig if you intend to have children or want to travel. It’s also an income enhancer in blue states, as teacher benefits are usually good and makes it easier for a spouse to take career risks. Nursing is a similar…

> Many women are doubly attracted to jobs where there is schedule flexibility. Female dominated jobs have less flexibility on average then male dominated jobs. It is mostly that primary caregivers after they have children need more flexibility, but original choice of occupation does not reflect this later need. > Teaching is a sweet gig if you intend to have children or want to travel. No it is not. It does not allow…

>Female dominated jobs have less flexibility on average then male dominated jobs. It is mostly that primary caregivers after they have children need more flexibility, but original choice of occupation does not reflect this later need.

Source? In finance I don't see my boss making my female colleagues skip going to the dentist while letting male colleagues go. I do see the lady that sits near me leave all the time for appointments or what have you for her kids. I don't really mind, I think it's good that we have flexibility, especially with all the top-down directive to make sure women (not men obviously just women) have more scheduling freedom. Personally, I'd take the scheduling freedom and work half time and stay at home with my kids instead of being stuck in a high-pressure career - but I don't have that option.

>That would be unusal, nurses I know have to be on the job on time and at schedule

True to some extent. When you're actually scheduled you have to be on there on schedule, obviously, but if you don't like your schedule then you can just jump to another hospital, at least in any mid-sized city with a few different hospitals and clinics. I don't see men working at Ford or something complaining that they can't just come in whenever is convenient for their family. I was actually having this discussion with a pharmacist (obviously not a nurse but a nurse on my team was listening in) and she was lamenting about her schedule - really likes her job but doesn't like the schedule - so I was giving her advice (mansplaining and placing an emotional burden on her and others if you live in SF) on how to handle having this conversation with her manager. Ultimately though you don't get everything you want and you have to be willing to quit the job if it doesn't fit your schedule - some people just aren't because of the money or whatever (not unique to women either, obviously). If you're a nurse (because that was the example) and your kids demand more time than your job allows, you should find a new job - it's not your employers responsibility to pay you for not being there or not doing work. They can accommodate you if they can - tech is easier to do that in, but otherwise it's your life and those are your decisions. Be an adult.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#34

Post by zolthrowaway »

monkeynotes wrote: post #24
chvid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. She writes as if this is unique to her profession, gender (?!) ... but it is not. This sounds like any other burnout stories from so many fields. Sure some fields are worse than others but academia is probably one of the better ones.

Let's not forget health workers. Doctors and nurses often work ridiculous hours with unimaginable stress, literally life and death decisions every day. I often consider myself to be very lucky to write JS for a living. I earn a decent wage, work decent hours, have reasonably good employability and portability of work, and if I make a mistake I can only kill the browser.

My girlfriend is a NP. She does make a good living, but the amount of stuff she puts up with is something I could never put up with. I may be stressed about a production emergency or a looming deadline, but for the most part I work 8-4. She deals with long, changing hours and has told me stories that have made me physically ill just from the description. I'm not sure how they handle this. She's had to put up with this even before she got an actual job. Clinical took a toll on her even before she graduated. The fact that LPNs and RNs even go to work everyday with lower pay and crazy hours amazes me. My hat goes off to the medical profession. Our system may be a mess but the doctors and nurses are making a lot of sacrifices to keep people healthy and alive.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#35

Post by ataturk »

shaki-dora wrote: post #28
mosselman wrote: post #3

The point the author seems to make by peppering the article with these mentions of gender seems to be that burnouts in education are gender related. These struggles are universal for all teachers, not just women. Saying 'xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. Saying no to people is hard for many pe…

The only mentions of gender in the article are the very arguments why it might be harder: "tenure-track horror stories we hear (particularly from women)" This is a reference to, among other things, sexual harassment. This is not exclusive to women, but they are the vast majority of victims. There was, for example, some upheaval in the astrophysics community, with dozens of stories of younger female researchers findin…

The issue I have with what you said is that while they are victims, everyone is a victim of one sort or another and there are serious crimes and there are stupid "crimes" like being patted on the butt by some old lecher. We can't right every wrong.

As far as overwork goes, I can tell you firsthand that while higher education is bad, the corporate workplace is nightmarish in scope. They work you to death then when your health fails, they throw you away and get a new one. That's the reality.

One job I had pushed me to my absolute limits. I quit it after my manager succumbed to either a heart attack or nervous breakdown of some kind. I'm not even sure what happened to him because HR just came by and said he was taking "medical leave." I never saw him again after that since about a month later I gave my notice and got out of there after my wife put her foot down about all the panic attacks I was experiencing and didn't know what they were.

Those pressure cooker jobs are't worth the money. What's worse is that I've realize that all development jobs are shades of what I went through at that one place and that worse, while my health has recovered, any amount of stress pushes my buttons now. I'm about ready to shuffle off voluntarily now and maybe just go make $15/hr. in some bullshit job someplace. It's better than being carried out, which I have witnessed so many times I can't even count: At one large company I worked for, I know of at least three people that died at their desks and many others who suffered breakdowns requiring EMTs to show up.

The sad truth is that there is a never ending supply of ambitious people willing to try to push it all a little further. On a long enough timescale, they're all dead people walking.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#36

Post by mosselman »

annabellish wrote: post #32
mosselman wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It isn't a competition." and "...women generally, on average, face more and more significant issues"? Double standards aside, that is exactly my point. It isn't a competition and it isn't fruitful to talk about gender when describing the struggles of people in a profession unless those struggles are directly related to gender. Which in this case they clearly aren't. I think reducing every problem, in this case getti…

It _isn't_ a competition. There is no "more valid and correct", and I did not suggest that there was - in fact, I directly stated the opposite multiple times. Just because a worse thing exists does not make something not bad. The world is allowed to be made out of shades of grey.

"The world is allowed to be made out of shades of grey."

I never said it isn't. I just don't see how voicing an opinion on who has it worse or not in a discussion about a different subject can lead to anything else than the polarisation of the discussion.

You can do whatever you want of course. I was just pointing out that I feel that there is some underlying sexism in the article and that it should probably be taken into account when determining its value.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#37

Post by Spooky23 »

watwut wrote: post #29
Spooky23 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think women are disproportionately attracted to jobs where the mission is people focused and caring focused. Many women are doubly attracted to jobs where there is schedule flexibility. Teaching is a sweet gig if you intend to have children or want to travel. It’s also an income enhancer in blue states, as teacher benefits are usually good and makes it easier for a spouse to take career risks. Nursing is a similar…

> Many women are doubly attracted to jobs where there is schedule flexibility. Female dominated jobs have less flexibility on average then male dominated jobs. It is mostly that primary caregivers after they have children need more flexibility, but original choice of occupation does not reflect this later need. > Teaching is a sweet gig if you intend to have children or want to travel. No it is not. It does not allow…

Teachers in my state work 180 days a year. You get the months of July and August off, two one-week holidays and all government holidays. In my wife's district you also get multiple religious holidays. The savings from a childcare perspective for us are probably on the order of $5,000-7,000 per summer for childcare alone.

Nurses can work in all sorts of places. Hospitals run shifts and have 8 and 12 hour shift options. Some hospital units run with two week schedules, so you can stack 12-hour shifts and work 6 days and take off 14. Surgical nurses often work 5AM-1PM. Nurses can also work per diem shifts on hospital floors, 9-5 shifts at doctor's offices or insurance companies, etc.

These professions do require that people actually show up to work and do so on time. Adulting is tough -- Many employers of programmers and engineers have similar requirements. The "upside" of that arrangement is that once your shift ends, your work ends. No boss is calling a nurse to demand that you respond to an email at 9PM.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#38

Post by Angostura »

mosselman wrote: post #3

The point the author seems to make by peppering the article with these mentions of gender seems to be that burnouts in education are gender related. These struggles are universal for all teachers, not just women. Saying 'xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. Saying no to people is hard for many pe…

Speaking as a man in the education sector, that's absolutely not the implication I took from this piece at all. She was telling the reader that that, though a woman, the problems she had were not particularly aggravated by the issues that can face women.

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#39

Post by dominotw »

shaki-dora wrote: post #28
mosselman wrote: post #3

The point the author seems to make by peppering the article with these mentions of gender seems to be that burnouts in education are gender related. These struggles are universal for all teachers, not just women. Saying 'xyz is hard in education, especially for women' creates an environment in which men should just suck it up and 'stop whining' because women have it truly hard. Saying no to people is hard for many pe…

The only mentions of gender in the article are the very arguments why it might be harder: "tenure-track horror stories we hear (particularly from women)" This is a reference to, among other things, sexual harassment. This is not exclusive to women, but they are the vast majority of victims. There was, for example, some upheaval in the astrophysics community, with dozens of stories of younger female researchers findin…

> This doesn't imply any wrongdoing by men, especially not by specific men.

In any instance where women fall short of or fail to perform as well as men external factors even amorphous ones can always be blamed. Since powerful men have been in charge of crating social conditions under which womens' identities have developed. Identity which in this case "tends to have far more doubts about their abilities and accomplishments", like you pointed out.

"doesn't imply any wrongdoing by men" is only possible if either of these was true

1.Current society wasn't created/shaped by men in powerful positions.

2. Women are biologically predisposed to have 'far more doubts'

I don't think either of those positions is correct. Whats your logic behind stating "doesn't imply any wrongdoing by men".

Re: Why I Collapsed on the Job

#40

Post by Angostura »

Lxr wrote: post #8
cyberferret wrote: post #2

Burnout doesn't differentiate between gender, race, sexual orientation, social status or the size of your bank account. Much like when I was in flying training and we were subjected to the altitude simulation pressure chamber so that we could each identify how we individually experienced the onset of hypoxia, I think it is important that everyone notates down the onset of burnout at home or at work. For me, Stage 1 i…

I agree you need to catch it early. I often wonder what the most time-efficient form of mitigation is.

Back in December; my stress levels were pretty high. I'm a can-do kind of employee; I really enjoy the adrenaline of sorting out an interesting unexpected problem on a short timescale.

But I was faced with multiple deadlines and some unexpected work came up and I was called up for jury service ( a not very nice case). I took my laptop home and tried to finish the projects after a day in court.

One day, at lunch in the court, I was thinking about a project and found myself silently weeping. So I got straight on the phone to my boss and explained that I;d just found myself crying, thought that this was probably a bad sign and thought I should stop on that project.

I'm lucky in that I have an employer that values me, trusts me and takes their duty of care seriously. It probably helps that I'm a man in my 50s. They told me to knock off the project completely and commanded me to stop thinking about it until after Christmas.

So, IF

* You have a good employer. * You have the courage to admit weakness

The most effective thing to do is to tell your boss asap and ask for reasonable accommodation until you feel better.

I'm back to doing stupid amounts of work, but my boss trusts that if it feels like it is causing me problems I will tell them, and I trust that they will deal with me reasonably.

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