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Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

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Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#41

Post by j_baker »

"It was my first job as a developer, and when my boss left I got promoted to "CTO" and got to hire my own small team. This is one of the main reasons I haven't really "gone after them". I don't really want to screw them over, I just want my money."

Did you deserve the job of CTO? If so, then you also deserved the paycheck. If not, then be happy with the fact that you got a cushy job that will look good on your resume and leave it at that.

Seriously, this is business. It's good to be happy about the time you worked there, but don't let it cloud your judgement. I'm not saying you should go after them. I'm just saying not to hold back because you feel you owe them something that you don't.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#42

Post by j_baker »

MediaSquirrel wrote: post #37

Well, they owe you SOMETHING, either cash or if they don't have it, equity. Demand what is yours. First off, you have a right to know the state of the company's finances. If they say they don't have the money, tell them to prove it and show you their bank account balance. Second, you can be aggressive without getting personal, as long as everyone stays honest. If they're lying to you, then they're douchebags and it i…

"Well, they owe you SOMETHING, either cash or if they don't have it, equity."

Who would want equity in a failing company? If I were the OP and they offered me equity, I'd be insulted.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#43

Post by pm »

0x5a177 wrote: post #33
trizk wrote: post #23

I am going to have to go against the grain on this one. Yes you are owed money that is rightfully yours. But you wanted to be part of a startup with all the associated glory and rewards. That means you also assumed some risk and realized you might have to be flexible based on the circumstances handed to the startup. Remember, Amazon almost went under. The founders are not jerks. They spent what they had on you and tr…

Thanks for your comment trizk. I think you capture what I mostly feel in my gut. I really do feel like the CEO really believes in the company to a fault. His gift and curse seems to be that of a hyper-visionary; what he sees in the company doesn't jive with my reality of the company. He has expressed remorse for the situation, but at this point he's lost my trust; I now read his remorse as mere bluffing. Not that I b…

It's likely the founder is a visionary without a pragmatic streak. Conferences and iPhones is what you give your developers when you're too optimistic about future business.

The founder is unlikely to be aware of his poor judgement. I know this, because I've made the same mistake. Tempering vision wih pragmatism is hard, especially if you achieve early success.

If your founder doesn't admit fault and put in a solid plan to turn the business around, leave.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#45

Post by techiferous »

0x5a177 wrote: post #35
techiferous wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And remember, they are the assholes..." When you start to see the people as the problem, instead of the people in the problem, it can hinder your social problem solving. And this is as much a social problem as it is a financial one. There is a chance that this can be resolved with (1) you getting your money back and (2) you still being on friendly terms, but probably not if you label them "assholes" in your head. :)

I think you hit the nail there in that I'm really curious on how to solve the social problem in more of a win-win way as you described. I would probably break down and rank the problem like this: 1. Character - how do I carry myself with justice, mercy, and compassion, yet not get pushed around and maintain self-respect? 2. Social - how do I maintain relationships? 3. Financial - how do I get my money?

Okay, here's an interesting idea. First of all, make sure both of you agree that they owe you money and you agree on the amount. Get it in writing.

Then ask them to pay you a set amount every week to pay down the amount. No matter what their financial situation is, they certainly can pay you something every week. Insist on getting paid something, even if it's just $1! Collect the check in person every week. Email them a receipt with an updated balance due. It's a very visible reminder to them that they owe you money and it's a way that you will at least get some money back!

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#46

Post by sethg »

Talk to a lawyer.

In some states, corporate officers can be personally liable for the unpaid wages of an employee. From my casual Googling, I’m not sure if California is such a state, but you should know how much leverage you have, even if you ultimately decide you don’t want to apply it.

Also note that if the company goes through bankruptcy, unpaid wages are fairly high up in the chain of priority for creditors.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#47

Post by philwelch »

tptacek wrote: post #4

You're not going to get the money back. 'grellas may hop on and set me straight on that, but what I expect will happen in the best case is that by pursuing a wage claim you start the machinery that finally puts your employer into bankruptcy, whereupon you become a creditor, lining up with all the rest of the creditors who aren't going to get paid either. Don't let my belief here imply that you shouldn't do anything;…

"whereupon you become a creditor, lining up with all the rest of the creditors who aren't going to get paid either"

I was under the impression that employees owed wages are paid before other creditors, which means OP would have a better chance of getting something.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#48

Post by leif »

0x5a177 wrote: post #35
techiferous wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"And remember, they are the assholes..." When you start to see the people as the problem, instead of the people in the problem, it can hinder your social problem solving. And this is as much a social problem as it is a financial one. There is a chance that this can be resolved with (1) you getting your money back and (2) you still being on friendly terms, but probably not if you label them "assholes" in your head. :)

I think you hit the nail there in that I'm really curious on how to solve the social problem in more of a win-win way as you described. I would probably break down and rank the problem like this: 1. Character - how do I carry myself with justice, mercy, and compassion, yet not get pushed around and maintain self-respect? 2. Social - how do I maintain relationships? 3. Financial - how do I get my money?

Most people know what's fair, somewhere deep down. You know it, and they know it.

Go to them confidently, tell them "You didn't pay me. I know your company's having problems, but that doesn't get you out of your debt to me, we both know this. How can we make this right without destroying our friendship and the company?"

If they don't give you anything to work with (you should accept either money or a solid explanation of why they can't pay you now, and a concrete, explainable timeline showing exactly when they'll be able to), then either they're clearly disrespecting you and their social contract, or they actually are completely bankrupt and have no hope of getting out of it, and in either case, it's perfectly within reason to start them down the bankruptcy path.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#49

Post by benatkin »

lionhearted wrote: post #16
tptacek wrote: post #4

You're not going to get the money back. 'grellas may hop on and set me straight on that, but what I expect will happen in the best case is that by pursuing a wage claim you start the machinery that finally puts your employer into bankruptcy, whereupon you become a creditor, lining up with all the rest of the creditors who aren't going to get paid either. Don't let my belief here imply that you shouldn't do anything;…

> You're not going to get the money back. Indeed, that's my read too, but he shouldn't just shrug his shoulders and give up. An option: Call them up, tell them you're short on cash and really need the money, and offer to take 1/4th of the salary you're owed if they can pay you shortly and it'd be a huge favor to you and you'd appreciate it. This removes the small chance of getting the full amount, but it gives the ve…

Why would they give him 1/4th the salary? Could he sign away his right to demand the full salary, or would any such agreement be unenforceable if he decided to come after them later?

I'd support the legal system allowing him to sign an agreement accepting a lower amount and making that final, but I wonder if it works like the minimum wage, where workers can't sign away their right to be paid at least the minimum wage.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#50

Post by benatkin »

j_baker wrote: post #41

"It was my first job as a developer, and when my boss left I got promoted to "CTO" and got to hire my own small team. This is one of the main reasons I haven't really "gone after them". I don't really want to screw them over, I just want my money." Did you deserve the job of CTO? If so, then you also deserved the paycheck. If not, then be happy with the fact that you got a cushy job that will look good on your resume…

Another thing about being CTO: are any other employees that have been shafted mad at him? In most companies that have the title, CTO is a leadership position.
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