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Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

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Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#31

Post by mrtksn »

tankenmate wrote: post #25
mrtksn wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What people do when a website that goes popular on HN or Reddit is too slow or can't respond at all? Someone on the comments links to Google Cache and more often than not this js-less basic HTML snapshot is good enough. AMP is just a way to do this properly and automatically. The Webdev community chooses to ignore the speed of the content delivery and Google seized the opportunity. What can a modern webpage do for th…

"AMP is just a way to do this properly and automatically." I don't automatically dispute the second part of that statement, but the "properly" bit requires more than a handwave to prove its point.

Properly means properly for the user, that is, without the aesthetically breaking the page or losing content(as it happens with google cache sometimes).

Nobody cares about the business that runs the website, businesses don't have god given rights to get users and make money. If some other business serves the users better(i.e. Google with AMP) they can get all the users. Who felt sorry for MySpace when getting killed by Facebook or who advocated the right of having users for Digg when everyone moved to Reddit?

Another thing is being a monopoly and exploiting that position, which is always a concern with giants like Google but at this moment with AMP doesn't seem to be the case.

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#32

Post by mrtksn »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #28
mrtksn wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a hypothesis that assumes that the major websites will get motivated until the users get frustrated by the low quality of search results. With AMP it's cheap and quick to implement, how long will it take for the websites to re-implement their codebase and all the tooling to match the performance criteria? Anyway, you're missing the point that I'm trying to make here: It's about the user's experience, it's not…

> assumes that the major websites will get motivated until the users get frustrated by the low quality of search results. Fair point - changes to Google's rankings apply more pressure to small websites than to established ones. > it's not about the user's distribution to businesses. It's not your god given right to have users and make money. What?

>What?

What?

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#33

Post by MaxBarraclough »

mrtksn wrote: post #32
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assumes that the major websites will get motivated until the users get frustrated by the low quality of search results. Fair point - changes to Google's rankings apply more pressure to small websites than to established ones. > it's not about the user's distribution to businesses. It's not your god given right to have users and make money. What?

>What? What?

Well, what are you trying to say? Why are you telling me "It's not your god given right to have users and make money"?

Why do you think this has any connection to our conversation?

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#34

Post by tankenmate »

mrtksn wrote: post #31
tankenmate wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"AMP is just a way to do this properly and automatically." I don't automatically dispute the second part of that statement, but the "properly" bit requires more than a handwave to prove its point.

Properly means properly for the user, that is, without the aesthetically breaking the page or losing content(as it happens with google cache sometimes). Nobody cares about the business that runs the website, businesses don't have god given rights to get users and make money. If some other business serves the users better(i.e. Google with AMP) they can get all the users. Who felt sorry for MySpace when getting killed…

If nobody cares about the businesses at the other end then one day you'll wake up to find that the only business left on the other side is Google, and then where will you turn?

  Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
  More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through
  the law to get after the Devil?
  Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
  More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil
  turned round on you — where would you hide, Roper, the
  laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with
  laws from coast to coast — man's laws, not God's — and
  if you cut them down — and you're just the man to do
  it — d'you really think you could stand upright in the
  winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil
  benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.[0]
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUqytjlHNIM

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#35

Post by arkh »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #2

I think a large portion of the tech industry understands Google AMP is an undeniable threat to the open web. The question is: Is there anything that can be done to stop it?

Just consider the commercial web as a lost cause: this is the centralized, identity enabled network companies want. Focus on the anonymous decentralized efforts to develop tools for the open web.

If most people don't care about their data and the security of the web, you can't make them.

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#36

Post by mrtksn »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #33
mrtksn wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What? What?

Well, what are you trying to say? Why are you telling me "It's not your god given right to have users and make money"? Why do you think this has any connection to our conversation?

Why do you think that web businesses are complaining about AMP but not the users? I'm yet to see a user that's not happy with AMP.

The web community acts as if the users are a commodity like oil and Google just made a change in its flow and now begging Google to make it flow like before to accommodate their business setup and promising that from now on they will be nicer to the commodity and store it in golden barrels.

I just don't buy it.

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#37

Post by mrtksn »

tankenmate wrote: post #34
mrtksn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Properly means properly for the user, that is, without the aesthetically breaking the page or losing content(as it happens with google cache sometimes). Nobody cares about the business that runs the website, businesses don't have god given rights to get users and make money. If some other business serves the users better(i.e. Google with AMP) they can get all the users. Who felt sorry for MySpace when getting killed…

If nobody cares about the businesses at the other end then one day you'll wake up to find that the only business left on the other side is Google, and then where will you turn? Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law! More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil? Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that! More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the De…

How this changes the fact that nobody cares?

Uber is probably also a threat to the public(apparently the people who run Uber are not very nice, remember all the scandals?) but people are so fed up with the taxi industry that they welcoming Uber to "slaughter" their local cabbies.

It's just business and that's why we don't live in a libertarian world and we have government bodies that regulate businesses.

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#38

Post by MaxBarraclough »

mrtksn wrote: post #36
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, what are you trying to say? Why are you telling me "It's not your god given right to have users and make money"? Why do you think this has any connection to our conversation?

Why do you think that web businesses are complaining about AMP but not the users? I'm yet to see a user that's not happy with AMP. The web community acts as if the users are a commodity like oil and Google just made a change in its flow and now begging Google to make it flow like before to accommodate their business setup and promising that from now on they will be nicer to the commodity and store it in golden barrel…

> I'm yet to see a user that's not happy with AMP.

But you're talking to one.

> begging Google to make it flow like before

My understanding is that AMP doesn't necessarily impact ad revenues ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Accelerated_Mobil... ). If it did, it wouldn't see adoption, no?

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#39

Post by mrtksn »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #38
mrtksn wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you think that web businesses are complaining about AMP but not the users? I'm yet to see a user that's not happy with AMP. The web community acts as if the users are a commodity like oil and Google just made a change in its flow and now begging Google to make it flow like before to accommodate their business setup and promising that from now on they will be nicer to the commodity and store it in golden barrel…

> I'm yet to see a user that's not happy with AMP. But you're talking to one. > begging Google to make it flow like before My understanding is that AMP doesn't necessarily impact ad revenues ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Accelerated_Mobil... ). If it did, it wouldn't see adoption, no?

I don't see your argument for not being happy with AMP as a user, so I can't tell.

Re: Google AMP Is a Threat to the Open Web

#40

Post by detaro »

mrtksn wrote: post #22
microtonal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restraint can't appear out of nowhere, especially when bloating the website frequently works - more ad revenue, more information about existing visitors and potential new customers. Rather than pushing for AMP, Google, Bing, etc. could just penalize websites (more heavily) for size in search rankings.

How this solves anything for the user? The better way is to provide the tech(AMP) so that content that is good for the user can be delivered properly instead of not delivered due to performance. Remember, it's about providing a good experience to the users, it's not about choosing the losers and winners in the industry. The taxi companies are making the same mistake against Uber, they assume that the users are an exp…

Measuring site speed and using that as an indicator does not preclude also providing tech (AMP) as a guidance for sites that need help with it, while rewarding those that already have fast and lean sites without it/giving them the freedom to not use AMP without negative impact.
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