Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 63 posts

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#21

Post by mgkimsal »

0x5a177 wrote: post #18
mgkimsal wrote: post #13

I was in their shoes once, and it was a horrible experience. I had paychecks bouncing at the end, some tempers flaring, and overall was about as miserable as could be. I'd suggested that people start looking for other jobs - there was no turnaround in sight. This was just a group of 5 of us - not some huge office, so we were closer (physically, if nothing else) than some other larger orgs that have gone through this.…

I think you can at least take some credit for telling your employees to look for other jobs. Our CEO would come into our office and say, "I just had a meeting with a potential investor and he's committed $25k!" He always had our hopes up, but our CFO would paint a different picture. Even our president told me he was starting to pick up work on the side.

We'd had a not bad year - our first six figure project was earlier that year. However, the sales cycle was proving to be much longer than we'd anticipated (selling to higher ed) and then we had a couple of projects cancel (mid-late 2003). Everything became too much.

Later, I went back to working for others for a while. I smelled a bad burn rate at this company, but only after I'd sold my house and moved states. :/ We were supposed to be impressed with announcements of $x projects and $y investments, but it wasn't that hard to see that 20+ people at a company, being paid full time, would eat up those $x and $y in just a couple months, but the $x was for a 9 month project.

I ended up being extremely cynical and distrustful of others (as I'm sure a few people ended up distrusting me earlier) and it's taken years to get back a modicum of faith/optimism again. Working for myself seemed about the only way I could have a degree of control and not be left in the dark on finances. Yeah, my boss is a jerk, but I'm sleeping with his wife. ;)

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#22

Post by ellyagg »

0x5a177 wrote: post #20
superdavid wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that if you do resort to pushing the company into bankruptcy, at best you'll get nothing, and at worst you'll make things even more difficult for the founders than they already are.

That is my fear in pushing too hard. I actually do want the company to succeed, but I just don't have the wherewithal to give the company this free loan.

Except, you're very likely not going to get the money, so I hope the "don't have the wherewithal to give the company this free loan" is an exaggeration. You should cut your losses. This is a sunk cost for you. Use your creativity to work on furthering your ambitions and career from here. Live for the future, not the past.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#23

Post by trizk »

I am going to have to go against the grain on this one. Yes you are owed money that is rightfully yours. But you wanted to be part of a startup with all the associated glory and rewards. That means you also assumed some risk and realized you might have to be flexible based on the circumstances handed to the startup. Remember, Amazon almost went under.

The founders are not jerks. They spent what they had on you and treated you well. Now they have nothing but your loyalty and goodwill. They probably want to pay you (maybe even before they pay themselves!) but they can't. Yes they are trying to keep plastic smiles so every one doesn't jump ship and you can live to fight another day. Perhaps, at this point they should be more honest, but I imagine they are afraid to see the dream vaporized.

Obviously, if you worked there for some time you at least kind of believe in what you are doing. Now is an opportunity to gain more control/equity and maybe even help steer the company to profitability. On the other hand if you are sure it is going nowhere, even if everyone tightened their belts and rolled up their sleeves then it is time to let go and write it off.

Yes you are entitled to the money. But you are probably not going to get it. You are only going to destroy relationships. Be up front with the founders. Either leverage your position to change your circumstances or walk away in good faith.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#24

Post by tomjen3 »

0x5a177 wrote: post #20
superdavid wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that if you do resort to pushing the company into bankruptcy, at best you'll get nothing, and at worst you'll make things even more difficult for the founders than they already are.

That is my fear in pushing too hard. I actually do want the company to succeed, but I just don't have the wherewithal to give the company this free loan.

Make it their fear - they are still in business, so somebody is getting paid.

Call them up and tell them straight out that they have a week to get the money otherwise you go after them in court, which will throw the company into banckruptcy.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#25

Post by tomjen3 »

mgkimsal wrote: post #13

I was in their shoes once, and it was a horrible experience. I had paychecks bouncing at the end, some tempers flaring, and overall was about as miserable as could be. I'd suggested that people start looking for other jobs - there was no turnaround in sight. This was just a group of 5 of us - not some huge office, so we were closer (physically, if nothing else) than some other larger orgs that have gone through this.…

Skip the law suit, call the fbi. The guy committed fraud, used a interstate commerce system (the internet) to do it, and he should be rotting in jail.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#26

Post by maxawaytoolong »

I worked for a company that did exactly the same thing. I didn't take them to court. They jerked around my friends who kept working there for years. They wouldn't pay them for months, fire them, rehire them with promises of giving them their backpay... all sorts of financial abuse. My friends were on the "creative" side of things, so they didn't have as many other options for employment, which is why they took the abuse. About a year after I quit I met someone who had worked with the CEO a long time ago, and said pre-startup the CEO was notorious for not paying bills, stiffing employees, was in estate lawsuits with his own sister, ex-wife and so on.

You should take them to court. Part of being a CEO/founder is taking care of your people. If you don't do that, you're really just using them.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#27

Post by techiferous »

tomjen3 wrote: post #24
0x5a177 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is my fear in pushing too hard. I actually do want the company to succeed, but I just don't have the wherewithal to give the company this free loan.

Make it their fear - they are still in business, so somebody is getting paid. Call them up and tell them straight out that they have a week to get the money otherwise you go after them in court, which will throw the company into banckruptcy.

"they are still in business, so somebody is getting paid."

It's actually possible that no one is getting paid and equity and commitment are driving the ones that are left.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#28

Post by mgkimsal »

0x5a177 wrote: post #19
mgkimsal wrote: post #17

Ballpark, what's a 'decent chunk of change?'. In my other comment, I mentioned I got stiffed for about $9k. Perhaps your situation is more? or less? I realize everyone's perception of 'decent change' is different, but I can tell you that at that point, for me, $9k was huge. I'd passed on other work for that contract, and then not getting paid was a pretty big hit. However, I managed to scrape through it (barely), hav…

The amount owed me is roughly the same as yours. I have positive cash flow in my personal finances so I'm above water, but if someone gave me that much right now it would almost feel like winning the lottery. What do you mean when you say you have diversified?

I'm doing multiple things - I didn't want to have all my eggs in one basket, revenue-wise. I'm getting to the point where I may want to refocus on just one avenue again, but the issue of having all income dependent on just one source, then getting shafted, was painful. Diversification was a reaction to that.

I know what you mean about $9k feeling like a lottery win. As I said, I ended up suing, but it's likely going to be years before you get a trial, and assuming you get a judgement, you still have to collect.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#29

Post by mgkimsal »

0x5a177 wrote: post #19
mgkimsal wrote: post #17

Ballpark, what's a 'decent chunk of change?'. In my other comment, I mentioned I got stiffed for about $9k. Perhaps your situation is more? or less? I realize everyone's perception of 'decent change' is different, but I can tell you that at that point, for me, $9k was huge. I'd passed on other work for that contract, and then not getting paid was a pretty big hit. However, I managed to scrape through it (barely), hav…

The amount owed me is roughly the same as yours. I have positive cash flow in my personal finances so I'm above water, but if someone gave me that much right now it would almost feel like winning the lottery. What do you mean when you say you have diversified?

I'm doing multiple things - I didn't want to have all my eggs in one basket, revenue-wise. I'm getting to the point where I may want to refocus on just one avenue again, but the issue of having all income dependent on just one source, then getting shafted, was painful. Diversification was a reaction to that.

I know what you mean about $9k feeling like a lottery win. As I said, I ended up suing, but it's likely going to be years before you get a trial, and assuming you get a judgement, you still have to collect.

One bit of advice might be to file in small claims court for whatever California's limit in small claims. In the state I filed in, it was $5k, but I wanted to go after the full $9k (technically, $8800 IIRC). It will probably get handled faster than a traditional court/arbitration process.

Get your documentation (emails, whatever) bundled together, file your claim, then move on in life (if you choose a legal route). If they're still operating (on a shoestring I guess?) there's still a chance you'll get a judgement, but it'll likely be years before you actually see a dime. So, don't think you'll be getting $9k any time soon.

I've planned my life around never collecting, but have put a process in place which might let me collect. But I have to operate financially like it's gone. Once you get to that point, and you're living without it, it might become easier to make the decision to not sue. In my case the company had a habit of operating this way, and I'm suing on the principal of it. In your case, if you were friendly with the guys, and you believe them to still be decent people, adding a lawsuit to their misery might not be the karmic thing to do.

Good luck either way.

Re: Ask HN: Startup stopped paying my salary

#30

Post by mattmanser »

Screw them over? Look at it another way. They shafted you, and others. They're in the habit of it now. They're going to keep on shafting until one day they shaft someone who really can't afford it. They could cause someone some real life tragedy, all in the cause of keeping a non-viable business going.

If you did start them on the chain of bankruptcy, you're doing a favour to all the people they'll screw down the line.

And if they're lying about money woes, you get something.

Better to kill the company before they cause some serious damage to a real person. I understand your reluctance, you probably put some of your heart and soul into it, but in the end it's just a company. You tried, they tried, but it just didn't work out.

Then again, having said all that, if I could detach my emotions from it I'd be a bit more selfish and take the advice elsewhere in the thread to negotiate a partial payment. It's probably your best chance of getting some money. But then again I wouldn't be able to detach my emotions, I'd go after the whole amount on principle and I certainly wouldn't have waited this long.

And the little twist, them buying you iPhones and sending you everywhere? That's people pretending to run a business. That's people being the big men, who think that's what a business should be when it's not. They pissed your paycheck away on frivolities. That was their choice.

Post reply on HN