In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster • Hacker News Board

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#311

Post by jjeaff » Tue, Feb 20, 2018, 6:26 AM UTC

lukaslalinsky wrote: post #32

jjeaff wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, sometimes when I hear people talk about how we kill animals inhumanely, I feel like they should watch a little bit of national geographic. Makes a sketchy slaughterhouse seem like a picnic.

This is a dangerous route to take, because at that point you can start comparing yourself to animals. We spent a few centuries developing our world, so I think it's fair to assume higher standards. Animals kill other animals to solve their hunger and they do their best to end it quickly.

Hardly. Again, watch some National Geographic. You will see plenty of animals struggling as they are devoured alive. We raise chickens for eggs. A few times, Opossums or racoons have gotten into the pen. They will kill every single chicken and eat maybe one or two at most. Sometimes, they will even chew off a hen's leg or both and leave it alive.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#312

Post by lenkite » Wed, Feb 21, 2018, 3:33 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #256

brownbat wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great reference. I will note that he seems to shrug, especially in footnote 19, as if to confess that whether lobsters feel pain or merely express reflexes is basically unknowable, not for any lack of humans trying to figure it out. He seems genuinely conflicted, rather than firmly opinionated, certain only that people should take these questions more seriously. Or maybe he's being coy, to avoid alienating the gourma…

Why would you kill spiders? I wondered after reading your comment. I never had the urge or need to kill one; do other people and why?

You probably don't live in a tropical country. If you left spiders in your house alone, then within a week the place is filled with cobwebs littered with dead insects. Also, many spiders give you rashes even if they don't bite you. And spiders tend to attract each other.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#313

Post by flyGuyOnTheSly » Thu, Feb 22, 2018, 8:40 AM UTC

IntronExon wrote: post #198

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because most humans would never agree that "freezing to death" is a just death, although I am sure it would work out just fine as you described.

Humans would rapidly freeze to death in a lobster’s natural habitat. Humans are not lobsters, and we should be careful to remember that freezing to death is experienced differently by animals with different metabolisms. A good rule of thumb is that endotherms suffer horribly and experience pain in low temperatures, while cold-blooded animals experience torpor.

Most humans do not think like that, or hardly at all in the philosophical sense.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#314

Post by brownbat » Fri, Feb 23, 2018, 1:59 PM UTC

graeme wrote: post #239

brownbat wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great reference. I will note that he seems to shrug, especially in footnote 19, as if to confess that whether lobsters feel pain or merely express reflexes is basically unknowable, not for any lack of humans trying to figure it out. He seems genuinely conflicted, rather than firmly opinionated, certain only that people should take these questions more seriously. Or maybe he's being coy, to avoid alienating the gourma…

As a practical matter, you should hesitate to kill spiders (unless you live somewhere they are poisonous) Households spiders eat all manner of pests! I leave mine alive, and almost never have insect trouble.

> Households spiders eat all manner of pests!

Fair, but that's a very different rubric than contemplated by the article.

If your take is strongly influenced by utility, you might not necessarily object to eating lobsters in the first place.

And maybe that's fine, just two distinct approaches to this question.

In fact, if you're concerned, like DFW is, about minimizing suffering for all things that "exhibit preferences," then maybe that's too broad. Maybe then you don't want spiders slaughtering a bunch of other insects, because they exhibit preferences in turn. And then... you become pro-killing spiders?

On the other hand, maybe other insects don't pass the sentience/sapience test, only spiders do, and everything's fine, and it just leads to Jainism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

But if you use the "insects are dumb" out, you eventually hit a more general carnivore problem. If you believe you have a moral obligation to avoid causing the suffering of animals for food, then what obligation do you have to protect animals from natural predation? Does the fact it happens in the natural world make the suffering less meaningful? If one believes the death of rabbits for food is a grave tragedy, does that imply a preference for coyotes to go extinct?

This isn't preaching, I'm not really sure what the answer is to any of this. Honestly I think your rubric is simpler in some ways.