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Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
271–280 of 321 posts
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is correct but sad. It's why better languages like Elm and Rust struggle to gain acceptance while inferior but well marketed efforts like Swift dominate.
Woah. I love Rust and program in it super often, but I've looked at Swift also and it seems like an incredibly capable language. It has similar capabilities for algrebraic types, and a "typeclass" like approach to parametric polymorphism. Also if I'm not mistaken, Graydon, the creator of Rust works on it now. What makes you say Swift is inferior? It seems like a huge improvement over ObjC.
> [What makes you say] Swift is inferior? It seems like a huge improvement over ObjC.
Not the poster, but both of those can simultaneously be true.
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
> One of the reasons I'm using OCaml/Elm in my new startup Where do I apply? ;-) (To prove the point: yes, I'm one of those passion people, moving to Denmark to work in OCaml full-time, before working in Clojure full-time. Now someone give me an Idris job, heh!)
I'm not the quoted person, but we hire Elm devs (or people who want to become Elm devs - no prior Elm experience necessary; you can pick it up after joining!) all over the world. Most of our team is remote, including one from Copenhagen! http://noredink.com/jobs
I think I know the person in Copenhagen, it is a small city after all :D
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#274Earlier quoted context omitted.
> One of the reasons I'm using OCaml/Elm in my new startup Where do I apply? ;-) (To prove the point: yes, I'm one of those passion people, moving to Denmark to work in OCaml full-time, before working in Clojure full-time. Now someone give me an Idris job, heh!)
I’m curius, who’s using OCaml in Denmark? (If you don’t mind me asking, of course)
There is SimCorp and Issuu that I know of, but I've also been at a meetup hosted by a company doing ReasonML. And there are a couple of people doing OCaml at Zendesk, but I don't know if they use it in production or just for fun.
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#275Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Don't you want people that care about your product instead of the technology behind it? I do. I would rather have people who care about their craftsmanship and are indifferent about the product than people who care about the product and are indifferent about the craftsmanship. The former ones do a good job regardless of what the product is about.
Indifferent to either is a red flag for me; I'll take neither, thanks. You don't have to have one at the expense of the other.
Depends how good people you want on your team. If your bar is low, then you
might find enough people above the skill threshold that care about your
product, but there are plenty of good craftsmen who couldn't care less about
your IPTV offering or some other SaaS for housewives, but who would put their
skills to great use for either, just because they do care about how solid is
the technical part.
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#276Earlier quoted context omitted.
Provided you dangle enough money and have a good interview process you can easily cull those people who can't code themselves out of a wet paper bag. The thing that would worry me about niche languages is the amount of wheel reinvention you'd have to do. Not sure the cost/benefit calculation starts to look so great any more when you realize that your enthused elm developers will have to build a whole lot of stuff tha…
Most niche languages have an FFI escape hatch for when you really need a library and don't want to re-invent a wheel. Elm, Purescript, Bucklescript, and ghcjs can all interoperate with javascript; Scala and Clojure work with most (all?) native java libraries; F# has access to most (all?) .NET libraries. Haskell, Idris, ATS, Erlang, and SBCL Common Lisp all allow you to access native system libraries. FFIs can have wa…
I don't agree. I find that the impedance mismatch of an FFI is an incredibly fertile breeding ground for nasty and obscure bugs and deployment problems.
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A community shouldn't be judged based on how smart everyone is (quite a difficult measure), a more useful metric would be how many useful community libraries there are That seems more of a metric for an ecosystem than a community.
It's presumptuous to assume "community A is smarter than community B". It's just not even the right question to ask. Better questions to ask are "what are third party libs like?", "how active are people in this community?", "how active is the SO and other forums?". These are actionable questions. "People who use Elm are smarter" is simply not actionable information. What does it even mean? It's meaningless.
> It's presumptuous to assume "community A is smarter than community B".
To assume with no basis, sure; to conclude it may or may not be.
> It's just not even the right question to ask.
It's not inherently operationalized, sure, though (as seen elsewhere in this thread), “advertising jobs for platform A results in us needing to filter out fewer candidates with no real programming ability than when we advertise jobs for platform B” I'd pretty much an operationalization of it, and quite (to address your later point) actionable.
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
I used Java, C and C++ before coming to Python. Unlike theirs, Haskell's type system is complete -- even a function of functions can specify exactly what kinds of functions it uses for inputs and outputs. That makes higher order programming much safer -- and higher-order programming might be the best way to move fast. Haskell is also astoundingly terse. In Java and C my data type declarations were too long to fit on…
That complicated type system w/ type inference does come with it's own costs, usually bad compile speed issues. It's what I've noticed when looking at languages like swift, rust, scala & haskell. I'm currently dealing with it in a large swift project, and I would much rather go back to the extra verbosity of objective-c than have type inference at this point. But that was insightful, thank you!
Data point : I’m working on a several hundred thousand line server using Scala. The incremental compile time
is usually 2 or 3 seconds. A clean build of the project is around 2 minutes
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#279Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is there some way in which side project experience is different than professional experience no one has ever informed me of?
The aspects in which they differ are numerous and substantial. If a candidate expressed the sentiment that they are the same in an interview, I would not take them seriously since it would indicate that they are either ignorant or naive, and either apathetic about work, or likely to favor personal coding pursuits over the job they're applying for.
And you've managed to try your best to denigrate me without actually stating any of the reasoning. If you would, try again, but hopefully without the ineffective sense of superiority.
Re: Elm changed my mind about unpopular languages
#280I built this in browser database app entirely in ELM. Since there is no existing rich component library available I had to write everything including a high performance grid implementation from scratch. The entire app took about a week and has zero runtime bugs since launch. I have to give credit to Elm for most of that. https://bellpluscat.com/
Is the source code available? For the whole product, or else for the table (or grid) component?
As an Elm developer I would be interested to dive into your implementation and perhaps contribute.