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Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

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Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#91
post #36
post #30

Isn't that a good thing? Imagine you have a little widget in your browser that displays something like '50%' which means you constantly use 50% of one core to mine a cryptocurrency for the page you are currently looking at. And in return you get an ad free web. I think that would be way better then the web as we know it.

Seems wasteful & fruitless. Better to evolve a micropayments model that works (because at least i can quantify what I pay)

Micropayment is the way to go. There needs to be a two-sided market. Free isn't the market clearing price and whatever the content producer wants to charge also isn't.

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#92
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, it's a bit of a gray ethical area for me. On one hand, what you say makes perfect sense. On the other hand, I like having my cake and eating it, too. It's like having a buffet dinner where the host tells you: "sure, you can eat this juicy steak, but you also have to eat the surrounding shards of glass that I've put there to feed my thirst for human dignity". If I particularly like the host I might do it, ot…

I don't love ads but that is a pretty poor and dramatic analogy... It's more like eating a free buffet and the host asks you to listen to his annoying friends while you eat... Some of them write notes about you and share it amongst themselves... I'm not sure this is really an ethical grey area for you or just rationalizing it into grey area. If the website you are reading completely relies on ad revenue to pay its em…

> It's more like eating a free buffet and the host asks you to listen to his annoying friends while you eat...

That already exists: a church-operated soup kitchen.

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely not. Wasting battery power to let somebody else buy into a pyramid scheme is not my idea of a solution.

You're reading an article that they provide... you're paying for a service. Ads promote tracking, third parties, uncontrolled CPU usage. A coin being mined is controlled, handled entirely by first party, provides no incentive for tracking, etc. This seems like a huge win.

I beg to differ. I've tried Coinhive's miner, it used all of processor's threads and making my browser unresponsive, couldn't even move mouse pointer or close the browser. Mining coins on a browser is bad for everybody involved, especially for the users.

https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2018/02/13/salon-mines-...

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#94
post #10

If this is done without explicit permission from the user, I can see it being some sort of hacking offence. So yes, I run adblockers. I will also run coinblockers. You're not going to be mining on my laptop processor and battery. Not yours. If you don't want me reading your stuff for free (which is perfectly reasonable!) then block me, instruct your server not to send content on those terms. I'm happy with that. But…

Out of curiosity... Rather than blocking ads, why not block sites that have ads? This way you comply with their implicit wish not to have you read their content without some sort of monetary return.

For me, its because the open web came first: people posted websites, you request delivery of websites, they send you the page/content, everyone was happy.

Then people started using it to do naughty things. Javascript came along. Tracking cookies. Tracking pixels. Crosssite scripts, etc. Oi vey! But they didn't come along all in one go you see. We kept going to sites, and every now and then we noticed people slipping in little bits of naughty that we didn't explicitly ask for or expect when we visited their website.

So the technical amongst us kept up things as we always did, using the open web, but we just wrote a thing to block the naughty: say entries of particular servers into host files.

Then someone started packaging these things up into programs and lists of all the bad things people were doing on the web, and we realized we didn't have to do it ourselves anymore. So we just set ourselves up with our privacy keeping program, our cookie/javascript blocker, and our ad list, and kept on surfing the internet, just as we'd always been doing for years.

The thing to understand is: i've never seen an ad on you-tube not explicitly because i'm trying to screw youtube over, but because we were here first, we surfed the web, sharing content and when bad players appeared, we stopped/blocked them. Many of us just organically reached this position by taking action against things that made that the web experience worse...bit by bit. People started serving us things we didnt ask for, so we just blocked the scripts and servers for the things we didnt ask for.

It seems to me arse-backwards to ask why we don't block sites that have ads: its because the web and users and authors were here first and then the commercial sites and practices invaded. Why would we co-opt our behaviour and our communication to serve the needs of the immoral, the user hostile, the dishonest and the underhanded? So they can sell things? Oh please!

The web is not here to serve businesses and ads.

THEY IMPOSED THEIR VISION ON US! not the other way around!

I'm not spending my time to individually cater to the whims of invaders of the open web. I essentially just have automatic blocks of bad players and behaviours my computer won't talk to and won't participate in.

/incidentally, my blockers do automatically block a number of sites now. news.com.au is automagically blocked, presumably because its gotten to the point where its content to ads/hostility ratio is so low that asking it to serve up content is now indistinguisable to my blockers from a site being genuinely bad/hostile.

but youtube, etc is free to put up a wall or blocker any time they want to stop serving material on the open web. And if you serve something on the open web and people download it, i have the world's smallest violin here to play for you...

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#95
The problem with ads is that they are not just ads these days. There is a big industry whose "product" is tracking users across sites, trying to build detailed profiles in order to present people with targeted ads they are more likely to click on.

In other words, a massive invasion of privacy that may very well come back to haunt us (think of an oppressive government trying to find potential dissidents, either to bombard them with propaganda or worse).

Using my browser as a cryptocurrency miner as I visit a site has obvious problems, especially on mobile devices, but from a privacy perspective it is far less troubling. With the exception of blogs people write in their spare time, most web sites need a way to recover their expenses. Even more so for news sites that employ journalists etc.

At that point, the interesting question is how effective running a Javascript miner is. When I visit web sites using a browser that has no ad blocker or tracking protection installed, I notice that ads, tracking scripts, etc. can use quite a bit of CPU, RAM and bandwidth, too. If I could be sure that a site using crypto-miners does not just gobble up my phone's battery like crazy, the idea is not that bad, as long as sites are transparent and up-front about it.

Some sites already offer a model where you either have ads or make a donation and get an ad-free page. Something similar with cryptominers could work, too.

(All this assumes, of course, that web site owners play fair, which is hopelessly naive all too often.)

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#96
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, it's a bit of a gray ethical area for me. On one hand, what you say makes perfect sense. On the other hand, I like having my cake and eating it, too. It's like having a buffet dinner where the host tells you: "sure, you can eat this juicy steak, but you also have to eat the surrounding shards of glass that I've put there to feed my thirst for human dignity". If I particularly like the host I might do it, ot…

I don't love ads but that is a pretty poor and dramatic analogy... It's more like eating a free buffet and the host asks you to listen to his annoying friends while you eat... Some of them write notes about you and share it amongst themselves... I'm not sure this is really an ethical grey area for you or just rationalizing it into grey area. If the website you are reading completely relies on ad revenue to pay its em…

I see adblocking as ethically justified because at the end of the day, I am only using my browser to ask for a resource from the content provider, and it is up to my computer, or by extension, the user controlling that computer, what to do with that resource if it is then provided.

If I put a piece of electrical tape physically over the ad on my monitor, I am effectively blocking the ad, but in this case the content provider gets to lie to their sponsor and say the ad made an impression, which just pushes the cost onto the sponsor. The ethics haven't really changed yet it is absurd to suggest that I am not free to put tape on my monitor.

I think it is hard to say that I am ethically obligated to pay attention to the ad just because a content provider unconditionally gave me something I asked for. The choice for content providers then, is to be like the WSJ, and simply quit giving away content unconditionally. If the content can't support itself that way, well, so be it. If no one was willing to pay for the content, doesn't this necessarily imply literally nothing of value was lost?

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#97
post #36
post #30

Isn't that a good thing? Imagine you have a little widget in your browser that displays something like '50%' which means you constantly use 50% of one core to mine a cryptocurrency for the page you are currently looking at. And in return you get an ad free web. I think that would be way better then the web as we know it.

Seems wasteful & fruitless. Better to evolve a micropayments model that works (because at least i can quantify what I pay)

In principle, yes, PLEASE!!!

In practice, people have been wishing for a well-functioning micropayment system for well over twenty years and the best we have to show for it is PayPal. Flattr seemed like a good idea, mostly, but for some reason it tanked, too (AFAIK).

Either people are not interested in creating one that works, or the problem is really, really hard.

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#98
post #33

Prime example of failed business models and their desperate attempts to survive. I'm really disappointed about how online publishers handle the decline of ad revenue. Of course my ad-blocker will also block your miner script, what do you think how this works? And better yet, integrating external third-party JavaScript into your website screams for abuse by attackers. Someone could just change the wallet address the s…

> sources like Patreon are the most appealing for me, though it might hurt websites I have not yet in my list and would not be able to access if I'm not a subscriber.

There's also the crowdfunding model. Backers can pay in advance to cover your production costs, and post-funding sales can earn you a profit. I've seen cases where the product became freely available once sales brought in a pre-determined profit.

Of course, this works best for individual productions with rather small budgets, such as documentaries or music albums. Not so much for big productions (think Hollywood movies) and not so much for periodic publications like magazines or blogs.

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#99
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your site showing up in other news outlets under a title like "Salon Magazine running cryptojacking malware on users" is terrible publicity. I get that they are using the version which asks for consent, but why even take the risk of associating yourself with such a shady piece of software? If you make money of ads, you'd think you wouldn't want to do things that might scare away your users.

The software (script) itself is not malicious, it's the way it's used in a lot of cases. It's similar to how torrents are usually used for piracy, but has some legitimate uses.

[deleted]

Re: Salon magazine mines crypto-cash with readers' PCs

#100
For this model to be successful(long term), sites/anyone who does this, must set an early precedent to inform and get consent from users. (this is, of course, antithetical toward modern advertising philosophy)

Otherwise, it crosses a line from Adware to Malware, further validates the reclassification of ad blocking/protection from optional to required, and will meet a quick demise

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