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Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

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Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#61

Post by shkkmo »

gwright wrote: post #58

That report starts out with the ridiculous statement that "40 million people continue to live in poverty" in the US. If you spend just five or ten minutes trying to understand where that number comes from you can only include that Mr. Alston is either unimaginably incompetent in understanding poverty statistics or he is being massively disingenuous in his reporting. A little googling will show that the 40 million num…

A little googling will show that "there is no international consensus on guidelines for measuring poverty".

I agree that "40 million people continue to live in poverty" is a claim that needs an accompanying definition of poverty and and description of the measurement methodology to really convey information. However that number is the Official US estimate of its own poverty rate. I agree that our methodology of measure poverty in the US is laughable and needs improvement, but you can't blame Mr. Alston for that.

Your assertion that this claim is "ridiculous" and that Mr. Alston is "unimaginably incompetent" or "massively disingenuous" for using the US's own measurement of poverty is thus clearly beyond hyperbole and more than a little ridiculous and quite disingenuous itself.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#62

Post by downandout »

Caveman_Coder wrote: post #59
downandout wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're referring to me, I'm actually somewhere in the middle. But I simply can't stand seeing political propaganda masquerading as legitimate news or facts - on either side of the aisle. So when I see such things, I'm going to point it out.

What do think about the other content in the report?

He presents some interesting actual facts, but again his analysis is colored by the extreme left-wing view they he laid out in the first paragraphs of the report. Assuming his facts are accurate, those are what they are. It’s the assertion of his editorial, hunches, and political views as fact that I have a problem with.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#63

Post by arcticbull »

downandout wrote: post #45
WaylonKenning wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you're an Entrepreneur (not a Special Rapporteur on extreme poverty and human rights) and yet you've rendered this entire report meaningless, in-spite of all the additional body of evidence considered in the report.

I read it. He presents no evidence that the recent tax reform has exacerbated the wealth gap. Of course, he couldn’t have, because the reforms were only recently passed, and thus it is not possible to know what the long-term outcome will be. By his own admission, he framed the entire report in light of his false statement of fact made at the beginning. So, while there are some interesting factual tidbits sprinkled th…

"stakes out America's bid" implies that this is intention and not result yet, so he's not claiming that it's happened yet.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#64

Post by protomyth »

sjg007 wrote: post #39
protomyth wrote: post #12

US infant mortality rates in 2013 were the highest in the developed world This is a common stat thrown around, but there is a non-obvious caveat. How this is counted differs between countries (even different in different EU countries). Wikipedia has a pretty good summary. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality

It's not reporting: "the differences in reporting are unlikely to be the primary explanation for the United States' relatively low international ranking. Rather, the report concluded that primary reason for the United States’ higher infant mortality rate when compared with Europe was the United States’ much higher percentage of preterm births.[72]" from the wikipedia article you cite. The question is why does America…

“the differences in reporting are unlikely to be the primary explanation”

Notice they haven’t gone through the trouble of normalizing the criteria and doing a proper count. ‘Unlikely’ is an opinion unchecked by data.

I’m getting a bit sick of the trend on HN of down voting facts that conflict with people’s world view. Prove it makes no difference or acknowledge that is a deceptive statistic to use.

Along those lines, where is your data on why the US has more pre-term births? Perhaps the US has less abortions when things are going to be tough? Speculation and poor comparisons don’t enlighten on solve problems.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#65

Post by gwright »

shkkmo wrote: post #61
gwright wrote: post #58

That report starts out with the ridiculous statement that "40 million people continue to live in poverty" in the US. If you spend just five or ten minutes trying to understand where that number comes from you can only include that Mr. Alston is either unimaginably incompetent in understanding poverty statistics or he is being massively disingenuous in his reporting. A little googling will show that the 40 million num…

A little googling will show that "there is no international consensus on guidelines for measuring poverty". I agree that "40 million people continue to live in poverty" is a claim that needs an accompanying definition of poverty and and description of the measurement methodology to really convey information. However that number is the Official US estimate of its own poverty rate. I agree that our methodology of measu…

So you agree that the statistic is meaningless without context and yet you are OK with that being the lead in the report?

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#66

Post by shkkmo »

gwright wrote: post #65
shkkmo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little googling will show that "there is no international consensus on guidelines for measuring poverty". I agree that "40 million people continue to live in poverty" is a claim that needs an accompanying definition of poverty and and description of the measurement methodology to really convey information. However that number is the Official US estimate of its own poverty rate. I agree that our methodology of measu…

So you agree that the statistic is meaningless without context and yet you are OK with that being the lead in the report?

I would have preferred to see context provided with the statistic (as it should be with every statistic). I don't think that usage of that statistic without context is meaningless given that it is the official US estimate of poverty. I certainly don't think the usage of that statistic without context warrants anything close to the vitriolic language that you used.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#67

Post by shkkmo »

gwright wrote: post #65
shkkmo wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A little googling will show that "there is no international consensus on guidelines for measuring poverty". I agree that "40 million people continue to live in poverty" is a claim that needs an accompanying definition of poverty and and description of the measurement methodology to really convey information. However that number is the Official US estimate of its own poverty rate. I agree that our methodology of measu…

So you agree that the statistic is meaningless without context and yet you are OK with that being the lead in the report?

Since this is a report about dealing with poverty, I would have like to see the author make the point that: improving our measurement of poverty is an important part of being able to fight poverty.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#68

Post by gwright »

shkkmo wrote: post #66
gwright wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you agree that the statistic is meaningless without context and yet you are OK with that being the lead in the report?

I would have preferred to see context provided with the statistic (as it should be with every statistic). I don't think that usage of that statistic without context is meaningless given that it is the official US estimate of poverty. I certainly don't think the usage of that statistic without context warrants anything close to the vitriolic language that you used.

I did use strong language. The statistic as used is extremely misleading. So far I haven't seen anyone discredit that conclusion. Pointing out that it is an official statistics isn't a rationale in favor of its use in this way. It happens to be just one of the measures of poverty published by the US government. There are lots of other poverty statistics that could have been used and so I can only assume the use was intentionally misleading.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#69

Post by shkkmo »

gwright wrote: post #68
shkkmo wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have preferred to see context provided with the statistic (as it should be with every statistic). I don't think that usage of that statistic without context is meaningless given that it is the official US estimate of poverty. I certainly don't think the usage of that statistic without context warrants anything close to the vitriolic language that you used.

I did use strong language. The statistic as used is extremely misleading. So far I haven't seen anyone discredit that conclusion. Pointing out that it is an official statistics isn't a rationale in favor of its use in this way. It happens to be just one of the measures of poverty published by the US government. There are lots of other poverty statistics that could have been used and so I can only assume the use was i…

You could have come in here and made a constructive comment about the number and the associate methodology of measuring poverty. Instead you made unfounded and unwarranted attacks on the author and made zero constructive contributions to the conversation.

If you want to make people more aware of better measures of poverty, you should have come in here with a critique of the measurement without the vitriol and ideally with examples of better measures that can be used.

Re: Statement on Visit to the USA by Professor Philip Alston

#70

Post by gwright »

shkkmo wrote: post #69
gwright wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did use strong language. The statistic as used is extremely misleading. So far I haven't seen anyone discredit that conclusion. Pointing out that it is an official statistics isn't a rationale in favor of its use in this way. It happens to be just one of the measures of poverty published by the US government. There are lots of other poverty statistics that could have been used and so I can only assume the use was i…

You could have come in here and made a constructive comment about the number and the associate methodology of measuring poverty. Instead you made unfounded and unwarranted attacks on the author and made zero constructive contributions to the conversation. If you want to make people more aware of better measures of poverty, you should have come in here with a critique of the measurement without the vitriol and ideally…

You are right, I could have done that and probably should have done that.

I have a certain amount of frustration that resulted in me venting rather than contributing. The misuse of the official US poverty stat is not something new. It has been floating around for a while and has been criticized quite a bit -- yet it is still used to put forth misleading arguments out of ignorance most often but not always. Here is a link on this very issue from 2011:

https://www.heritage.org/poverty-and-inequality/report/under...

It is one thing for a misleading statistic to be repeated in tweets, online discussions, comment streams and so on. It is a completely different thing for the misleading stat to be coming from an "authority". They should know better.

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