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Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

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Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#831

Post by mseebach »

bjourne wrote: post #830
mseebach wrote: post #828

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just a detail. Google didn't hire or fire Damore in Denmark, so obviously they didn't bother to follow Danish law. My point is that Google could most likely fairly easily have argued that the memo caused insurmountable cooperation difficulties and terminated him on that basis. The exact steps, the time taken and the phrasing of the arguments would have been different, but the substance (he got fired for the me…

You are wrong. Read the link here: https://gettingthedealthrough.com/area/18/jurisdiction/52/la... "Similarly, ‘conduct of the employee’ means that dismissals based on sickness absence, underperformance, etc, will usually be considered reasonably justified. In most cases, however, it will be a requirement that one or more written warnings have been given before the dismissal to allow the employee to remedy the situat…

No, they didn't issue warnings because they didn't have to. If they did have to, they would have issued a warning, then found that no action he might take could have remedied the situation (the things in the memo that were considered harassment can't meaningfully be taken back), and then he would have been fired.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#832

Post by oh_sigh »

throwaway324823 wrote: post #668
bduerst wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a good breakdown here, that was eventually run in Forbes: https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

Is it a good breakdown? The author seems awfully bought into the narrative of power structures being the dominant reason for sex differences, and is obviously extremely angry . Hardly an unbiased observer.

Yes, the author makes a point that Damore's memo 'makes repugnant attacks on compassion and empathy'. Does it really? That seems a bit silly and I didn't read anything like that in the memo. It makes me suspect other parts of the rebuttal.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#833

Post by ameister14 »

ggggtez wrote: post #690
ameister14 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't that it was sexist, it was that it stereotypically characterized a gender in an effort to get Google to stop being so proactive in their compliance with EEOE laws. I don't think it said anything about innate superiority - as I recall, it was mostly about innate interests and bell curves, and posited that the reason there were less women in tech than men was because there were less women interested in things…

I guess some people think that you can't be sexist so long as you put a p value. Must be a weird world to live in.

Not really the point either. If at the extreme end of the spectrum for more interest in things rather than people you have a significantly larger population of men than women, that's not really a sexist thing to say.

It's logical that people extremely interested in things over people become engineers, so with everything equal you'd have a lot more male than female engineers.

To balance that, you'd have to make other benefits great enough through incentives that people become engineers even if they are more interested in people, rather than things.

Lacking such incentives and having a large imbalance of male vs female engineers, it'd also make sense that there would be a large imbalance of male to female engineers at Google, entirely without the presence of gender discrimination.

None of that was what I would call sexist. However, Google is in compliance with EEOE laws when it attempts to encourage more women to join the company in all capacities in large part because of this imbalance, and even though Damore is arguing (and even if he's right) that this imbalance is not caused by a lack of equal opportunity, it doesn't matter.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#834

Post by fareesh »

rsp1984 wrote: post #119
tptacek wrote: post #2

The first thing everyone needs to know about this is what the case was about, because it implicates one of the most powerful and least known rights tech company employees have. According to Section 8(a)(1) of the NLRA, employees can't generally be disciplined for exercising the rights provided under Section 7 of the NLRA. These rights are commonly understood to be about unionizing (ie, you can't be fired for trying r…

(for instance, any kind of official recognition that men are better suited to software development at Google than women) This was where Damore's got his words twisted in his mouth: He never claimed that! The problematic claims he did make are that women - on average - "have a harder time negotiating salary, asking for raises, speaking up, and leading" and are more prone to "neuroticism". Nowhere in the memo does he t…

Neuroticism should be parsed as a reserved word. It is a technical term and his use of it is proper since he is quoting academia. The results of research are not stereotypes. That would be like saying that it is a stereotype to believe that people who smoke have a higher possibility of developing cancer.

It is not problematic to use the terminology of the field that you are citing. The problematic part is misrepresenting those words as judgements. That would be like firing our programmer for lazy-loading images because we can't tolerate laziness at our firm.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#835

Post by hluska »

stcredzero wrote: post #792
hluska wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no idea and honestly, at this point, I don't really care. For some reason, politics has become a game of zingers and one liners. Actual respectful discourse has gone out of style. Hell, I hopped over to Twitter to defend ThomPete against a very tasteless tweet. I dreamed that maybe, just maybe I could be involved in a conversation that revolved around mutual respect and well worded arguments. Instead, there wa…

I have no idea and honestly, at this point, I don't really care. For some reason, politics has become a game of zingers and one liners. Actual respectful discourse has gone out of style. It's precisely this sort of apathy which far-left ideologues are using. Given that you are an advocate of good old fashioned rational dialogue, it might not be too long before they come after you next and try to lump you into the "Al…

Then, they can come after me, but again, I don't really care. I know the truth about myself.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#836

Post by eitally »

rurounijones wrote: post #673
eitally wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The firing was over his methods (and the adverse impact they directly had on the broader organization), not his opinions.

As far as I know his methods were to post his document to an internal mailing list specifically for feedback on potentially controversial topics[1]. This seems a "by the book" method (although I am surprised such a mailing list exists). Someone ELSE then disseminated it more widely (Internally and externally). [1] I cannot find any citations on this right now though, google-fu appears to be failing me.

Accompanied by all sorts of inflammatory dialogue and generally aggravating behavior.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#837

Post by stcredzero »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #826
stcredzero wrote: post #802

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's citing "legitimate scientific sources" but he doesn't understand them, so his citations are meaningless. You seemingly refuse to substantiate this. I made no claim that his interpretations are "wrong". I said that his interpretations are most likely wrong because he's not a psychologist What would you say if a prominent and widely cited academic and clinical Psychologist corroborated his interpretations? https:/…

stcredzero, I enjoy vigorous debate (I'm an academic) and in the past I've benefited tremendously from engaging opposing viewpoints. That's nothing like what I got from our conversation, which is instead becoming more and more embarassing for both of us, the more it grows. My apologies but it is evident to me there can be no productive debate between us and therefore I will now stop replying to you.

which is instead becoming more and more embarassing for both of us, the more it grows

Your argument just came down to: "I don't lend any credence to psychology/sociology, therefore I'm right to label it all pseudoscience." Also, since you're not supplying particulars, your mention of your background just amounts to argument by authority. Unless one grants that, I don't see that you really have a supported position. The rest is all heated assertion on your part. I will happily leave it to 3rd party readers to decide who is being intellectually honest here.

There seem to be a plague of pseudo-academics under the "Postmodernist" flag, which claim their own "alternative facts" and "alternative logic." In such an environment, skepticism and asking for substantiation of positions is quite understandable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfYIpgpMUYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKmyO3hbOz8&

If, on the other hand, you'd like to actually substantiate something, then it would seem this would be beneficial and educational. (One thing we've seen from Postmodernist "fake academics" is that they are actually embarrassed when people are given a link to their work.)

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#838

Post by titanix2 »

eridius wrote: post #733
titanix2 wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An hostile workplace is one firing an employee for the mere act of sharing an opinion. As the memo was not directly addressed to any female and did not insult them it is clearly not harassment. Questioning the hiring policy is not like attacking people directly. This is sad to see how much everything got conflated in an angry prêt-à-penser ideology that justify every of its excesses against the non believers.

No you're right, he didn't address harass a single coworker. Instead he harassed all of the women he work with at the same time. Just because he didn't name names doesn't mean it's not harassment; he deliberately insulted an entire demographic of people, and then tried to pretend it was "scientific" when it was just a load of bullshit, as if that makes it any better. If his memo was railing against, say, the Irish, w…

> If his memo was railing against, say, the Irish, would you still think he wasn't harassing any of his Irish colleagues?

If an entreprise I work in would start things such as saying "there is not enough Irish in the entreprise", have a skewed hiring process towards Irish, imposes me lessons about how to behave around Irish, and forbid the use of French even when only French speakers are around, yes I would totally support someone (of every nationality) asking the hierarchy what is going on. Or I may even do it myself.

The only case it would be acceptable is of course a company which makes money based in Irish culture and language, which then require these specific people to be hired. But on the women side of the things, as I consider them totally equals to men and thus apt to do the same technical jobs as men granted we speak of the same education level, I don’t see why they should be favored over men. And some women in my lab totally think that way too. One actually told me she hates this type of policies because it kinda lowered her work to get her job (not that’s easy either to succeed as a man).

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#839

Post by stcredzero »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #525
stcredzero wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was a public assassination of a powerless nobody for cheap political points. That's the part that I have a problem with. This willingness to "un-person" someone for reasons of ideological fervor -- this is precisely why I, as a liberal, feel so alienated from so much of the far-left politics going around nowadays. I've personally been a target of such things. (I can't discuss it, but I can say that it was not ge…

As a conservative I share your feeling of alienation, because look at how the right has responded. It's given us Trump which is really gross. I fear we're in a very precarious position both culturally and politically and I wish I had some insight into how to move back towards a place where we can have rational intelligent discussions again. For the meantime I think we'll all be relegated to the "intellectual dark web…

Actually, that was Bret. Eric is his brother.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#840

Post by stcredzero »

tptacek wrote: post #786
stcredzero wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, it's currently going through a widely publicised reproducibility crisis and in any case, the reliance on p-values has been criticised widely by experts in fields as varied as economics, medicine and of course the humanities. The big-5 model itself has been the subject of much cr…

I don't think that is a very fair summary of that comment, which was considerably more detailed than the one that preceded it.

I re-read the comment several times. What I get out of it, is that he notes that Big-5 has been criticized. That's what's supposed to happen in science. Bringing up that something is criticized in science is a classic climate denier tactic! (Also, given the controversial subject matter, one would expect that.) He also mentions his credentials. Then he engages in name calling. ("cargo-cult.") I'm sorry, but exactly where in that comment does he actually substantiate anything? After several readings, it still looks like he doesn't.
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