Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A secret on the ocean floor

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 58 posts

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#21

Post by alex_duf »

Pigo wrote: post #15

"Bram Murton, a geologist with the UK’s National Oceanography Centre, says that if all the cars on Europe’s roads are electric by 2040, and if they use the same kind of batteries as the Tesla Model 3, that would require 28 times more cobalt than is produced right now." "At the moment more than 60% of all cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo. For decades allegations of corruption and human rights abuses…

I am fascinated by renewable energies, and I too hate the idea of mining more in order to manage our energy transition.

However the massive difference with drilling for petrol is that petrol has a drill and burn lifecycle. You drill once, then burn it, then you need to drill more. Cobalt for instance will be put in batteries that will be charged and discharged numerous time before reaching their end of life. Then the car battery will be re-used in grid-scale battery storage, then finally recycled to be put in a car again (or phone or whatever else)

So although I dislike the idea of more mining, I can see how the situation switches from use once to use thousands of times and how it's a slight improvement on our current situation (climate change aside).

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#22

Post by Finnucane »

sandworm101 wrote: post #5

So those vents, the ones covered in crabs, worms and all the other living things, are going to be ground up into slurry? Didn't Monty Burns try something like this? A mile down might seem far, but that's where sperm whales and elephant seals feed. This will come back to haunt us.

Why do you say that? Mining companies have a long and honorable history of responsible environmental stewardship.

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#23

Post by jimmy1 »

deanCommie wrote: post #7
ideonexus wrote: post #6

It's hard not to see this from all sides: the saddening loss of biodiversity, the world's desperate need for these metals, and the needs of poor countries to exploit their natural resources to rise up in the world. At first I was horrified by the mining technique being described here, and then the article got into all the United Nations protections and regulations surrounding this process. It's encouraging to know th…

I'm much less optimistic than you. The amount of willful cognitive dissonance on display here is staggering. > “Where we’ll be operating, it’s cold and dark,” says one senior Nautilus executive. “There are no tuna there, they need entirely different conditions near the surface of the ocean.” I expect nothing less from the mining executive to dismiss concerns that the ocean's ecosystems are directly connected. > "For…

> On the other hand, there are also hundreds of millions of people that rely on fish for their protein. Are we willing to risk destroying our oceans to save our land?

Plenty of fish you can eat that live in tanks of water. Who says they need to come from the ocean?

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#24

Post by jacquesm »

Finnucane wrote: post #22
sandworm101 wrote: post #5

So those vents, the ones covered in crabs, worms and all the other living things, are going to be ground up into slurry? Didn't Monty Burns try something like this? A mile down might seem far, but that's where sperm whales and elephant seals feed. This will come back to haunt us.

Why do you say that? Mining companies have a long and honorable history of responsible environmental stewardship.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you meant that sarcastically.

https://www.google.com/search?q=rio+tinto+environmental+dama...

For just one example. Resource extractors of all kinds are among the worlds biggest polluters and destroyers of habitats and entire eco systems.

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#25

Post by JoeAltmaier »

nerdponx wrote: post #13
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. What's happened to the ocean floor is a tiny, tiny fraction of what we've done to the land. Its just invisible, which in my mind lets people's imaginations run free. A few cable trenches? We've got two or three crossing the lot my house is on, not to mention 3 billion other people's lots. Mining? This ocean-floor stuff won't be a patch on what the US has done to the southwest, nor what Russia's done…

But the hydrothermal vents host thriving communities of marine life - snails, worms and shrimp that have evolved to cope with very specific conditions. In some cases these creatures are extremely rare, which is why the prospect of deep sea mining is highly controversial. You can't say the same for the earthworms and dandelions harmed by digging a trench in the yard in New England.

We're largely unaware of the millions of extinct insects etc that humanity extinguished in our conquest of the 7 continents. Suffice it to say, all those that evolved on land for very specific conditions are long gone. Except for those we're bulldozing today without noticing.

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#26

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tomalpha wrote: post #17
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not so sure. What's happened to the ocean floor is a tiny, tiny fraction of what we've done to the land. Its just invisible, which in my mind lets people's imaginations run free. A few cable trenches? We've got two or three crossing the lot my house is on, not to mention 3 billion other people's lots. Mining? This ocean-floor stuff won't be a patch on what the US has done to the southwest, nor what Russia's done…

> I can't dig a shovel of dirt from my field without finding a plastic fragment This, in the wider environment, whether microbeads in fish or plastic bags in the ocean, is one of the greatest modern tragedies IMHO.

I disagree. I'm not sure its at all significant. Whether the fish has sand or plastic fragments in its gut may be immaterial. This issue has been fastened onto by well-meaning folks without much study.

Perversely, the fact that many fish have micro beads in them is encouraging - they clearly are surviving and reproducing despite the beads (or we wouldn't be finding them in such large numbers).

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#27

Post by marcosdumay »

jacquesm wrote: post #24
Finnucane wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say that? Mining companies have a long and honorable history of responsible environmental stewardship.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you meant that sarcastically. https://www.google.com/search?q=rio+tinto+environmental+dama... For just one example. Resource extractors of all kinds are among the worlds biggest polluters and destroyers of habitats and entire eco systems.

I don't think there is any other interpretation possible for the GP. I don't think we should adopt the habit of postpending a "\s" everywhere, at least not on HN.

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#28

Post by Shivetya »

Pigo wrote: post #15

"Bram Murton, a geologist with the UK’s National Oceanography Centre, says that if all the cars on Europe’s roads are electric by 2040, and if they use the same kind of batteries as the Tesla Model 3, that would require 28 times more cobalt than is produced right now." "At the moment more than 60% of all cobalt comes from the Democratic Republic of Congo. For decades allegations of corruption and human rights abuses…

so solid state battery technologies require cobalt? Are we just in a transition from the liquid (they are wet, right?) batteries we have now?

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#29

Post by specialist »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #26
tomalpha wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't dig a shovel of dirt from my field without finding a plastic fragment This, in the wider environment, whether microbeads in fish or plastic bags in the ocean, is one of the greatest modern tragedies IMHO.

I disagree. I'm not sure its at all significant. Whether the fish has sand or plastic fragments in its gut may be immaterial. This issue has been fastened onto by well-meaning folks without much study. Perversely, the fact that many fish have micro beads in them is encouraging - they clearly are surviving and reproducing despite the beads (or we wouldn't be finding them in such large numbers).

So, not a big fan of the hippocratic oath (precautionary principle)?

I really don’t know how to respond to denial, whatsboutism, selective incredulity. Mostly, I give up.

But know that when obstructionists finally get a clue, I’m fresh out of goodwill, and won’t be helping.

Good luck.

Re: A secret on the ocean floor

#30

Post by oldcynic »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #26
tomalpha wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can't dig a shovel of dirt from my field without finding a plastic fragment This, in the wider environment, whether microbeads in fish or plastic bags in the ocean, is one of the greatest modern tragedies IMHO.

I disagree. I'm not sure its at all significant. Whether the fish has sand or plastic fragments in its gut may be immaterial. This issue has been fastened onto by well-meaning folks without much study. Perversely, the fact that many fish have micro beads in them is encouraging - they clearly are surviving and reproducing despite the beads (or we wouldn't be finding them in such large numbers).

That seems quite the stretch. We don't know enough of the long term consequences of them in fish, or if there is any genetic damage. Or of chemicals concentrating as they move up the food chain, eventually to us.

To me that is very discouraging. We should be trying to find out consequences before we dump millions of tonnes and find plastic strewn over uninhabited beaches and micro beads in most oceanic life. We should study the possible consequences of undersea mining long before companies are formed and machines start rolling. It might, after all, turn out to be yet another bad idea.

Post reply on HN