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New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

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Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#111

Post by Caveman_Coder »

mwcampbell wrote: post #99
soyiuz wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a great example. Someone (like your wife) may be bothered by being contacted by pushy activist groups and then even castigated for not participating. We weigh that against systematic income inequality and sexual harassment along gender lines. It seems like that minor inconvenience is worth the net benefit to the community, from which your wife benefits (for example, by being legally protected against sexual di…

Still, those pushy activists should see the GP's wife as a person with her own interests, priorities, and desire to be left alone, not just a token [insert group identity here]. A generalized version of what I just said might even make a good item in a CoC.

I don't think this would need to be codified...There seems to be too much of that going already

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#112

Post by skookumchuck »

jacobian wrote: post #88
Caveman_Coder wrote: post #72

I wonder why tech communities need their CoC... I'm a member of a local HAM radio group and we don't have any CoC and we don't have any issues at all. The male/female makeup is about 70/30 and there are people of various political/religious viewpoints, but I haven't once seen any issues over these differences. I've seen leftists amicably talk and work with conservatives because when we meet as a group it is all about…

I assume you have some standards of behavior, though, right? If a member of your group, say, punched another member, you’d probably kick him out, right? If so: you have a code of conduct, you just don’t have a _written_ code of conduct. You’re relying on the relative homogeneity and shared context of the group to know and follow the unwritten rules. This tends to work ok for smaller more homogenous groups with shared…

> But unwritten rules fail for people on the margins, and falls apart at scale.

How ever did society survive before written CoC's?

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#113

Post by skookumchuck »

temprature wrote: post #85
coldtea wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or "anyone not familiar with the fashionable norms du jour, here's a list of potential thought crimes as derived by one country's culture (and its internal conflicts, cultural politics, and religious and post-religious baggage) and imposed on supposedly global communities".

In what country is it acceptable to not treat others with basic courtesy and respect? Which is really all the list is asking for.

Why not just say that, then?

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#114

Post by harryh »

skookumchuck wrote: post #113
temprature wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country is it acceptable to not treat others with basic courtesy and respect? Which is really all the list is asking for.

Why not just say that, then?

Because experience has taught us that some people need it explained in a bit more detail what constitutes basic courtesy and respect.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#115

Post by skookumchuck »

harryh wrote: post #114
skookumchuck wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just say that, then?

Because experience has taught us that some people need it explained in a bit more detail what constitutes basic courtesy and respect.

If they don't know it already, I doubt thrusting a CoC document at them will enlighten them. People who are rude are intentionally rude. It's kinda the whole point to being rude.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#116

Post by harryh »

skookumchuck wrote: post #115
harryh wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because experience has taught us that some people need it explained in a bit more detail what constitutes basic courtesy and respect.

If they don't know it already, I doubt thrusting a CoC document at them will enlighten them. People who are rude are intentionally rude. It's kinda the whole point to being rude.

I agree with you to some extent, but note that we have all sorts of traffic laws and not just a generic "drive safely."

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#117

Post by whatshisface »

soyiuz wrote: post #69
Yver wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The benefits of that kind of CoC remain to be proven. Meanwhile, I note that HN's moderating guidelines do not mention sex, gender, religion, food choices, or most of what FreeBSD's new CoC describes. HN's moderating guidelines are about content whereas FreeBSD's new Code of Conduct codifies human behaviour, as the name would imply. They are different things.

To your first point: The detriments of that kind of COC remain to be proven as well. But why even bring this up? Even a perceived benefit to a marginalized group is worth it. Do we imagine the status quo as somehow harmed by stronger anti-harassment policies? There are numerous examples of sexual harassment online and in person. The potential chilling effects of stronger guidelines have to be weighed against the actu…

>I am talking to you here and not on Reddit because of stronger guidelines (and the resulting, to my mind, higher quality of discussion).

That's a really interesting statement - I think that it has more to do with the actual people in the community (including the individual people moderating) than the guidelines they wrote. I think that if you took the HN guidelines and told a major subreddit's team to implement them, the discussion there wouldn't get any better. Why? Because it's all dependent on the judgment of the community and the moderators, and you either have that resource (and are already using it) or you don't.

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#118

Post by erics32 »

Caveman_Coder wrote: post #72

I wonder why tech communities need their CoC... I'm a member of a local HAM radio group and we don't have any CoC and we don't have any issues at all. The male/female makeup is about 70/30 and there are people of various political/religious viewpoints, but I haven't once seen any issues over these differences. I've seen leftists amicably talk and work with conservatives because when we meet as a group it is all about…

Your local HAM radio group isn't being infiltrated by social justice activists. Tech orgs don't need a CoC and have functioned mostly fine since the beginning without them. CoCs are pure entryism (the most famous example being Opalgate).

Consider this line from the CoC:

>Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neurodiversity, physical appearance, body size, age, race, or religion.

Why even include the line 'reinforce systemic oppression' ? I guarantee that the CoC won't be enforced against someone saying stuff like "Kill all men" or "white men are garbage". They're a tool for expelling anyone who doesn't kowtow to social justice ideology.

One of the most widely used CoCs - Open Code of Conduct -specifically has a section about not accepting complaints regarding ‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#119

Post by mwcampbell »

erics32 wrote: post #118
Caveman_Coder wrote: post #72

I wonder why tech communities need their CoC... I'm a member of a local HAM radio group and we don't have any CoC and we don't have any issues at all. The male/female makeup is about 70/30 and there are people of various political/religious viewpoints, but I haven't once seen any issues over these differences. I've seen leftists amicably talk and work with conservatives because when we meet as a group it is all about…

Your local HAM radio group isn't being infiltrated by social justice activists. Tech orgs don't need a CoC and have functioned mostly fine since the beginning without them. CoCs are pure entryism (the most famous example being Opalgate). Consider this line from the CoC: >Comments that reinforce systemic oppression related to gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, mental illness, neuro…

What do you think of the FIOL Code of Professionalism [1]? To me it seems very fair. Note: This COC has come a long way in the past year or so since Matthew Garrett criticized it for being an abuser's fantasy.

[1]: https://github.com/fantasylandinst/fcop/blob/master/CODE_OF_...

Re: New FreeBSD Code of Conduct

#120

Post by andrepd »

skookumchuck wrote: post #112
jacobian wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume you have some standards of behavior, though, right? If a member of your group, say, punched another member, you’d probably kick him out, right? If so: you have a code of conduct, you just don’t have a _written_ code of conduct. You’re relying on the relative homogeneity and shared context of the group to know and follow the unwritten rules. This tends to work ok for smaller more homogenous groups with shared…

> But unwritten rules fail for people on the margins, and falls apart at scale. How ever did society survive before written CoC's?

Badly. I for one am glad Bronze Age people had the brilliant idea to write down their laws, as I'm glad Romans and Byzantines decided to spread their legal system around.
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