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In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#231
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been struggling with this recently as well. I don't need to kill animals in order to survive and so doing so is just for my pleasure. It's surprisingly easy to put this out of your mind when you're sitting down to a nice dinner, but I do doubt that I'd be able to kill animals if I needed to do it with my own hands. Yet I and most others decide all the time that ending the life of another animal can be justified…

Why do you, and many contemporaries with you, doubt you'd be able to kill animals? Especially when apparently our ancestors had no such qualms. I venture this is a matter of exposure, we rarely see animals butchered. In fact, most animals we see are pets, contant with wildlife is very minimal. So we recoil at killing animals, because pets are like family, and most of our experience with animals are with pets. Thus, w…

> So we recoil at killing animals, because pets are like family, and most of our experience with animals are with pets. Thus, we see animals as much more human than our ancestors.

This also heavily depends on how human-like we perceive the animals, both in their behaviors and appearance. Most people would be horrified at seeing a dog slaughtered, but have no problem genociding away the fleas, ticks, and worms living with it.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#232
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people It doesn't have to be; in fact, humans, animals, and the planet would be much better off in many ways were we to transition to plant-based diets: Go vegan, save the planet https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/opinions/go-vegan-save-the-pl... Five things would happen if everyone stopped eating meat http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/five-things-wou…

There are people who have averse reactions to almost every plant based food, and can largely only eat meat or suffer horrible mental and physical health problems. Diet is not one-size-fits all, and we have basically no idea how complex diet is, or the specific long term effects of most dietary interventions on people. It is absolutely reprehensible to represent going vegan as an obvious way forward when it is unclear…

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden should not be on the people to justify every one of their liberties. Should a gay couple need justify to the state the merit, moral dignity, or in any way their choice to live as gay people to the state? No. It should never be that way. But to legitimize illegitimite authority you just need to win over the hearts and minds of the people that what you are doing is good, by first doing things that are, in is…

Of course the burden is on the state to justify the intrusion of liberty, but providing they can do so (i.e. the proposed action in isolation is a good thing), I'm not seeing the issue - preventing the government from making good interventions because of hypothetical future bad laws seems like an even worse path to take. Ultimately, how can you govern if good actions are just treated as a means to legitimise unspecif…

You're misunderstanding this. The issue is with regard to what constitutes legitimate authority. It's because the government has a monopoly on violence. The time to leash that is when it oversteps its legitimate authority. Not wait until something awful happens when they're locking up communists, reading your email, or killing minorities.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#234

That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines, and hamsters or guinea pigs must be kept in pairs. And anyone who flushes a pet goldfish down the toilet is breaking the law. Say what? So in Switzerland I can go to jail for not making a play date for my cat, or buying a little friend for my hamster? What's next, you can't kill a spider that's creeping around your house? People need to understand t…

That's your perspective, but consider what was also said about the Women's rights movement in Victorian times: "Give them the right to own property? What next? The right to vote?!".

Some considered those laws equally absurd.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#235

The weird part of all this is lobster was considered garbage only about a 100 years ago. I live in a rural area and the farmers would use whole lobsters as fertilizer on their fields. This only after anyone bothered to collect them from the beaches, no fishermen were catching them. Even when people did eat them anyone who did was poor. My mother in her mid 70s said to me kids at school who had lobster were mocked bec…

"Convict food" in penal Australia.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, that person couldn't live and be healthy without meat, so the quote doesn't apply to them. Most people can. > I'm glad it works for you right now while providing a sense of moral superiority, but not everyone is the same. Come on.

> Most people can. Any sources? Most of the professionals seem to think otherwise.

[Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27886704/)** * It is the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics that appropriately planned vegetarian, including vegan, diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits for the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. These diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, adolescence, older adulthood, and for athletes.

[Dietitians of Canada](https://www.dietitians.ca/Downloads/Factsheets/Guidlines-for... * A healthy vegan diet can meet all your nutrient needs at any stage of life including when you are pregnant, breastfeeding or for older adults.

[The British National Health Service](http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Vegetarianhealth/Pages/Vegandiets... * With good planning and an understanding of what makes up a healthy, balanced vegan diet, you can get all the nutrients your body needs.

[The British Nutrition Foundation](http://www.nutrition.org.uk/publications/briefingpapers/vege... * A well-planned, balanced vegetarian or vegan diet can be nutritionally adequate ... Studies of UK vegetarian and vegan children have revealed that their growth and development are within the normal range.

[The Dietitians Association of Australia](https://daa.asn.au/smart-eating-for-you/smart-eating-fast-fa... * Vegan diets are a type of vegetarian diet, where only plant-based foods are eaten. With good planning, those following a vegan diet can cover all their nutrient bases, but there are some extra things to consider.

[The United States Department of Agriculture](http://www.choosemyplate.gov/tips-vegetarians)** * Vegetarian diets (see context) can meet all the recommendations for nutrients. The key is to consume a variety of foods and the right amount of foods to meet your calorie needs. Follow the food group recommendations for your age, sex, and activity level to get the right amount of food and the variety of foods needed for nutrient adequacy. Nutrients that vegetarians may need to focus on include protein, iron, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12.

[The National Health and Medical Research Council](https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/file/publications/n55_... * Appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthy and nutritionally adequate. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle. Those following a strict vegetarian or vegan diet can meet nutrient requirements as long as energy needs are met and an appropriate variety of plant foods are eaten throughout the day

[The Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healt... * A well-planned vegetarian diet (see context) can meet the needs of people of all ages, including children, teenagers, and pregnant or breast-feeding women. The key is to be aware of your nutritional needs so that you plan a diet that meets them.

[The Heart and Stroke Foundation of Canada](https://www.heartandstroke.ca/get-healthy/healthy-eating/spe... * Vegetarian diets (see context) can provide all the nutrients you need at any age, as well as some additional health benefits.

[Harvard Medical School](http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/becoming-a-veg... * Traditionally, research into vegetarianism focused mainly on potential nutritional deficiencies, but in recent years, the pendulum has swung the other way, and studies are confirming the health benefits of meat-free eating. Nowadays, plant-based eating is recognized as not only nutritionally sufficient but also as a way to reduce the risk for many chronic illnesses.

[British Dietetic Association](https://www.bda.uk.com/foodfacts/vegetarianfoodfacts.pdf)** * Well planned vegetarian diets (see context) can be nutritious and healthy. They are associated with lower risks of heart disease, high blood pressure, Type 2 diabetes, obesity, certain cancers and lower cholesterol levels. This could be because such diets are lower in saturated fat, contain fewer calories and more fiber and phytonutrients/phytochemicals (these can have protective properties) than non-vegetarian diets. (...) Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of life and have many benefits.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#237

It's also illegal to own a single guinea pig or parrot (because they are prone to loneliness): https://www.zmescience.com/other/feature-post/guinea-pig-swi...

I am a vegetarian, but I'm more troubled by these totalitarian laws. Yes, I know they 'are just helping animals,' but throughout history, too often tyrants strip your liberties in the name of of moral righteousness.

This is Switzerland, if we Swiss had a problem with these laws or considered them "totalitarian" we could overturn them via a referendum.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same token, a gradual increase in the legal and customary respect shown to animals could inculcate a growing respect for our fellow humans.

I realize I've laid out a slippery slope. That's why I was hesitant. The strongest case is for banning organized, large-scale animal cruelty done for depraved enjoyment. But I don't think we should prosecute people because we don't like, for example, that they use electric shock collars to keep their dogs from running off. I'd summarize my position as: 1) animal interests for their own sake are not a legitimate end o…

You're not holding much water to be honest. Pick one: a) animals are incapable of suffering b) we shouldn't care if animals suffer c) we should care and pass laws

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#239
post #4

It's at this point you'd probably want to go read David Foster Wallace's essay "Consider The Lobster", an assignment he took from (I shit you not) Gourmet Magazine, which begins with a sort of Illinois Country Fair style travelogue from the Maine Lobster Festival and "ends", if you can call the back 2/3rds of an essay "ending", in a discussion of the meaning of pain and its applicability to the specific nervous syste…

Great reference. I will note that he seems to shrug, especially in footnote 19, as if to confess that whether lobsters feel pain or merely express reflexes is basically unknowable, not for any lack of humans trying to figure it out. He seems genuinely conflicted, rather than firmly opinionated, certain only that people should take these questions more seriously. Or maybe he's being coy, to avoid alienating the gourma…

As a practical matter, you should hesitate to kill spiders (unless you live somewhere they are poisonous)

Households spiders eat all manner of pests! I leave mine alive, and almost never have insect trouble.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize I've laid out a slippery slope. That's why I was hesitant. The strongest case is for banning organized, large-scale animal cruelty done for depraved enjoyment. But I don't think we should prosecute people because we don't like, for example, that they use electric shock collars to keep their dogs from running off. I'd summarize my position as: 1) animal interests for their own sake are not a legitimate end o…

You're not holding much water to be honest. Pick one: a) animals are incapable of suffering b) we shouldn't care if animals suffer c) we should care and pass laws

My argument is the option you're omitting:

d) animals suffer, we should care, but we should not pass laws when their sole purpose is to prevent that suffering.

There is more to a society that what it compels at gunpoint. We can abhor behavior without proscribing it by law.

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