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In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#181

Post by rdiddly »

chr1 wrote: post #41
tptacek wrote: post #4

It's at this point you'd probably want to go read David Foster Wallace's essay "Consider The Lobster", an assignment he took from (I shit you not) Gourmet Magazine, which begins with a sort of Illinois Country Fair style travelogue from the Maine Lobster Festival and "ends", if you can call the back 2/3rds of an essay "ending", in a discussion of the meaning of pain and its applicability to the specific nervous syste…

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is…

The killing in this case is a foregone conclusion, so it's really a question of, What is worse: causing a lot of pain before killing, or causing a little pain before killing? A bit easier to answer.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#182

Post by shard972 »

mc32 wrote: post #176
Bizarro wrote: post #167

That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines, and hamsters or guinea pigs must be kept in pairs. And anyone who flushes a pet goldfish down the toilet is breaking the law. Say what? So in Switzerland I can go to jail for not making a play date for my cat, or buying a little friend for my hamster? What's next, you can't kill a spider that's creeping around your house? People need to understand t…

To me the law is probably well intended but likely ineffective. Beside, it's their country and having self-determination, let them do as they will. That said, who is going to ensure no one breaks the law? I guess it mostly will affect commercial food preparers, but it's not like people at home will turn themselves in or they'll have embedded monitors on live lobsters who will rat out a cook. If they really meant it,…

Why not get companies like Amazon and Google involved? People are setting up microphones all around their houses and some even are adding cameras now. Hell even Amazon with their new stores could offer a lot in this field.

We can just have the algorithms work out who is breaking these kinds laws and then just add the fine to their amazon bill.

You can say people would be against this but im sure with enough conditioning and lobbying the populations will understand how this helps secure animal rights.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#183

Post by wildmusings »

avdempsey wrote: post #173
wildmusings wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the strongest arguments for banning cock/dog fighting is that it inculcates moral depravity in its participants. To stand there and take pleasure in causing suffering in living things can only serve make you callous to human suffering as well. It seems justified to ban it, at least as an organized, large-scale enterprise.

By the same token, a gradual increase in the legal and customary respect shown to animals could inculcate a growing respect for our fellow humans.

I realize I've laid out a slippery slope. That's why I was hesitant. The strongest case is for banning organized, large-scale animal cruelty done for depraved enjoyment. But I don't think we should prosecute people because we don't like, for example, that they use electric shock collars to keep their dogs from running off.

I'd summarize my position as: 1) animal interests for their own sake are not a legitimate end of government coercion, and 2) the moral character of the people is a legitimate end, but we should be very hesitant to use coercion for social engineering.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#184

Post by parent5446 »

mudil wrote: post #169
Bizarro wrote: post #167

That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines, and hamsters or guinea pigs must be kept in pairs. And anyone who flushes a pet goldfish down the toilet is breaking the law. Say what? So in Switzerland I can go to jail for not making a play date for my cat, or buying a little friend for my hamster? What's next, you can't kill a spider that's creeping around your house? People need to understand t…

It's as easy to catch a spider and throw it out as to kill it. So fo the right thing and have a respect for a little wild animal.

You're making an assumption that it is indeed the right thing to do.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#185

Post by Tyrannosaur »

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #141
TomMarius wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you severely underestimate how much painful torture is.

If you knew there would be no permanent damage would you do it for $10, $100, $1,000, some amount that assures you never have to work again, etc? There's many cultures that have coming of age rituals that would be considered torture in the western world. People do those things because they're "part of a larger package" so to speak.

There being "many cultures" that do this, I'd like to hear some examples. The only ones I can come up with are fictional

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#186

Post by shard972 »

lazyasciiart wrote: post #161
myrandomcomment wrote: post #142

So you will crush a roach or swat a fly? I am all for humane chicken faming methods, et.al. However we are the top of the food chain and we eat everything below. That means it dies. My friends dogs will try to eat his chickens and it is not pretty (he trains the dogs not to of course.) I have a forest full of dear behind my house. I heard the very loud screaming of an animal the other day. One of the deer was lunch f…

Fascinating thoughts, maybe you shouldn't live in Switzerland.

Thanks captain obvious, Although maybe a more insightful response would have been pointing out the contrast between the modern culture of switzerland and that of nature which lacks major intrusions by humans.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#187

Post by [deleted] »

mudil wrote: post #169
Bizarro wrote: post #167

That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines, and hamsters or guinea pigs must be kept in pairs. And anyone who flushes a pet goldfish down the toilet is breaking the law. Say what? So in Switzerland I can go to jail for not making a play date for my cat, or buying a little friend for my hamster? What's next, you can't kill a spider that's creeping around your house? People need to understand t…

It's as easy to catch a spider and throw it out as to kill it. So fo the right thing and have a respect for a little wild animal.

[deleted]

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#188

Post by lovich »

Tyrannosaur wrote: post #185
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you knew there would be no permanent damage would you do it for $10, $100, $1,000, some amount that assures you never have to work again, etc? There's many cultures that have coming of age rituals that would be considered torture in the western world. People do those things because they're "part of a larger package" so to speak.

There being "many cultures" that do this, I'd like to hear some examples. The only ones I can come up with are fictional

These are the most extreme example I know of, but it's a lot of pain for a manhood ritual

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maw%C3%A9_people

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#189

Post by myrandomcomment »

mudil wrote: post #169
Bizarro wrote: post #167

That means cats must have a daily visual contact with other felines, and hamsters or guinea pigs must be kept in pairs. And anyone who flushes a pet goldfish down the toilet is breaking the law. Say what? So in Switzerland I can go to jail for not making a play date for my cat, or buying a little friend for my hamster? What's next, you can't kill a spider that's creeping around your house? People need to understand t…

It's as easy to catch a spider and throw it out as to kill it. So fo the right thing and have a respect for a little wild animal.

I like the spiders. They eat the flys and other bugs. Of course they do so in a method that would be outlawed in Switzerland.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#190

Post by brownbat »

tptacek wrote: post #4

It's at this point you'd probably want to go read David Foster Wallace's essay "Consider The Lobster", an assignment he took from (I shit you not) Gourmet Magazine, which begins with a sort of Illinois Country Fair style travelogue from the Maine Lobster Festival and "ends", if you can call the back 2/3rds of an essay "ending", in a discussion of the meaning of pain and its applicability to the specific nervous syste…

Great reference.

I will note that he seems to shrug, especially in footnote 19, as if to confess that whether lobsters feel pain or merely express reflexes is basically unknowable, not for any lack of humans trying to figure it out.

He seems genuinely conflicted, rather than firmly opinionated, certain only that people should take these questions more seriously. Or maybe he's being coy, to avoid alienating the gourmand.

I'm curious if he hesitates to kill spiders since writing this article. Spiders are similar to lobsters. Spiders exhibit preferences. Maybe we should all hesitate to kill them. Or maybe that's just crazy. I don't know.

Incidentally, if you want to feel incredibly confused about how you balance empathy towards human and nonhuman things, including arthropods, (and robots, and sociopaths, ...) you should read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. It's a short novella, it's culturally relevant, it isn't really captured by the films, and it artfully messes with your head.

DFW on lobsters: http://www.columbia.edu/~col8/lobsterarticle.pdf

(The PKD is pretty easy to find, no link.)

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