Learning to program is getting harder • Hacker News Board

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#391

Post by Will_Parker » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 6:34 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #256

Will_Parker wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building a server-side PHP app is really not that hard. That is arguably the biggest historical problem with PHP. :)

I don't agree. It took me multiple years to really wrap my head around building web pages (to say nothing of apps) in PHP. There's just too much h*ckin' stuff in the web that you have to be aware of and being able to build stores of relevant information is definitely in some ways easier--Stack Overflow exists--but in others, thanks to the volume of crap you just have to chew through, it is much more difficult.

Oh, if you're talking about anything on the front end more rich than simple classic forms and full page reloads, I agree. It just wasn't clear what you meant by "non-trivial".

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#392

Post by andredublin » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

socialist_coder wrote: post #2

Anecdotally, what I've seen is that older programmers, in addition to being programmers, also have the skills of a computer helpdesk technician. They can debug Windows problems, hardware problems, know how to mess with the BIOS, and have no problem installing or configuring any piece of software. This helps immensely when setting up your IDE or debugging weird problems with compiling. Younger programmers seem to comm…

Interesting point, I'll add that we don't see many desktop computers any more. Kids or those wanting to learn to program don't see the whole machine. Instead we have these slim downed devices that require existing knowledge to take apart and put back together again.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#393

Post by root_axis » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

kbwt wrote: post #363

root_axis wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are easier to get started with for several reasons. 1. Automatic GC means new programmers don't have to understand memory management or concepts like pointers up front. 2. Dynamic typing does not demand type declarations or throw type errors so it lets new programmers get up and moving quickly without having to appreciate the purpose and benefits of a type system. 3. No compiling means faster builds so newbies b…

But then we're not comparing the same thing. If you were trying to learn manual memory management, type declarations, linkers, cross-compilation and packaging in 2018, would that really be any easier than in 1998?

I don't disagree, but these languages can still be used to create useful programs for hobbyists and industry without having to learn those concepts, so I'd say it certainly counts as "easier to learn", the utility of those other skills notwithstanding.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#394

Post by TallGuyShort » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 7:29 PM UTC

baq wrote: post #354

NTDF9 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of a recent interview where they asked me, "How does the client to a server?" I replied "over the socket" To which they replied, "Using REST over HTTP" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

'African out European' next time, it is.

I don't understand this - could you enlighten me?

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#395

Post by glorkk » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

Please don’t hijack the horizontal swipe. It is for going back/forward in navigation histoey, not switching between articles on your website.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#396

Post by chiph » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

TallGuyShort wrote: post #394

baq wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'African out European' next time, it is.

I don't understand this - could you enlighten me?

"African or European" - refers to Monty Python's classic film Holy Grail

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFQgwwXOfR4

note: Watch the witch scene later in the film - there's a coconut and swallow at the start of it.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#397

Post by IshKebab » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 9:41 PM UTC

shakna wrote: post #336

IshKebab wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah but we only has BASIC. Want to do some real C++ GUI programming? That'll be £1000 for the compiler please.

Guessing you never had access to Turbo C++, which was originally released for US$50.

No because I didn't have $50, or a credit card with which to buy it.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#398

Post by mirimir » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 10:24 PM UTC

josteink wrote: post #376

mirimir wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Familiarity with how computers work arguably peaked during the early-mid PC era. The first computer that I used was an IBM 360. Basically, someone showed me how to punch cards, and how to enter my data. After submitting the job, I'd find out the next day whether it crashed, or completed properly. And after a few tries, I got my results. But nowhere in that process did I know anything about IBM 360s, or how to program…

> With an IBM XT 286, on the other hand, it was all in my face. Earlier in the pre-PC age, for the hobbyists you had similar experiences with home computers like Tandy RadioShack, ZX spectrum, Commodore Vic-20 or 64, not to mention the Amigas and Ataris (and all the others I’m old enough to have forgotten). Early Macs also let you mess around (and mess up) your system too. It was an exciting time in computing indeed,…

Yes, it was sloppy of me to say "PCs". I meant personal computers, more generally. Which arguably includes all the pre-PC ones.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#399

Post by figgis » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 1:12 AM UTC

conradk wrote: post #172

figgis wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really just sounds like issues with whatever web IDE you are using. Remote development does not need to be a huge pain like that.

I wasn't using a web IDE, but the dev server was remote. While I suppose remote environments do not have to be a huge pain, I'd be interested to know how to mitigate all of the issues I mentioned in my previous comment. The only solution I've been able to setup is a local environment with minimal set of dependencies calling the network.

For testing there are quite a few good remote solutions. Here are a couple I'm familiar with.

https://developer.github.com/v3/guides/building-a-ci-server/ https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/ci/examples/README.html

My simplified workflow is: do work locally using whatever IDE I desire -> create a pull request -> server runs the tests and puts the results in the pull request. Much faster than running the same tests on my local machine as well.

With the tests being done remote you will also likely not need to commit such large amounts of data that it becomes a problem.

> Working with a local environment and 4g connection is fine, because 4g is more than enough to look up docs. But working with a distant environment and 4g connection is very slow and unreliable.

Normally even if you are working remote it's expected that you have a stable, decent, connection. But even without one there are plenty of great options.

For documentation I actually keep that local using https://devdocs.io/.

Without internet you don't have sites like stackoverflow and that's a downside that really can't be fixed without some serious work.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#400

Post by shakna » Sun, Feb 18, 2018, 1:39 AM UTC

IshKebab wrote: post #397

shakna wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guessing you never had access to Turbo C++, which was originally released for US$50.

No because I didn't have $50, or a credit card with which to buy it.

Sorry, didn't mean to come across as harsh.

Just wanted to point out that C++ was in reach for a lot of people, thanks to Borland's compilers. They were considered cheap by most.

Example, in my case. I had a TRS-80 200 computer, which cost US$600. About the same as most computers of that era. In the context of owning a computer, the $50 wasn't much more.