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US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

arstechnica.com

41–50 of 104 posts

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#41

This is a stunning display of ignorance about how the games industry actually works today. Loot boxes, like how Blizzard implements them in Overwatch, are the absolute best business model in an industry that's otherwise filled with predatory pay-to-play DLC business models. With Overwatch, you pay $30 up-front for the game, and that's it. You don't have to pay a cent more, no matter how often or how long you play it.…

"actually executing on a rather ethical business model"

artificial scarcity seasonal events with limited availability on loot boxes which are marketed to children, with fancy skins they want, there's nothing ethical about marketing and profiting from children gambling. Just because even less ethical business models exist, Blizzard and Valve don't get a free pass for being slightly less evil than the competition.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#42
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like an argument to remove all randomization from purchases.

At the very least, all purchases should include info about the randomization. It shouldn't be legal to sell randomized products while keeping the randomization secret.

Do you think that will prevent the supposed harm?

Lottery tickets include odds on the back of the cards. I think that has a very small effects on discouraging play. And those odds are pretty straight forward (1 in 2,000,000 for a 500k payout). I imagine information about how randomization works would be even more indecipherable.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#43

This is a stunning display of ignorance about how the games industry actually works today. Loot boxes, like how Blizzard implements them in Overwatch, are the absolute best business model in an industry that's otherwise filled with predatory pay-to-play DLC business models. With Overwatch, you pay $30 up-front for the game, and that's it. You don't have to pay a cent more, no matter how often or how long you play it.…

First off, she never mentioned Overwatch. She mentioned lootboxes as a whole. When you view the greater picture of lootboxes, arguing that they're somehow more ethical because one game does it better than others isn't a particularly strong argument. Assuming that her attack on lootboxes is a focused attack on Overwatch would be categorically incorrect.

Second, there is constant pressure to buy boxes. You have various event-limited lootboxes designed to encourage people buying on impulse, else they miss out. There's constant feedback into that desire loop through a dripfeed of free lootboxes designed to get you hooked.

Third, lootboxes do not prevent P2W behavior. You can see this in various Gacha games whose functionality is similar to lootboxes as well as games like Battlefront 2 where the player was encouraged to buy more to be stronger.

And the option for 'no support' did not seem to be a problem for say, League of Legends. Which until recently was surviving without any sort of lootbox paradigm based off of buying cosmetics. SFV is also similar. You create a bunch of contrived scenarios where the only end result is 'lootboxes or death' which we can see is false, given how many games seem to do just fine without them.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#44
post #20
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how this would work out for Magic the Gathering. Currently card prices are mostly set by the community, because of relative power, rareness, and demand. I'm not sure if WotC can make accurate prices up front.

Actually, WotC and the community are quite good at predicting price and market forces on their game. They have ~20,000 cards and 25 years of sales, and numerous quick factors for determining approx. card value. Concepts like the "curve" (mana vs P/T), and the value of evergreen keywords greatly help. If there was ever a topic for big data. Naturally, there are surprises (ex: Standard deck that becomes overly popular…

This is completely backwards.

Each card is assigned a rarity (common, uncommon, rare, mythic rare) based on its power. All cards of a given rarity have the exact same probability of showing up in a given booster pack. It's possible for a card to get reassigned during a reprint, but it's pretty unusual.

Wizards doesn't set the secondary market prices; the secondary market prices are determined by the demand for that card[0] and the outstanding supply. The outstanding supply is also fairly straightforward: with the exception of cards in pre-built decks[1], cards are basically only printed through booster packs. So, if two cards are both printed at "rare" in a single set (and not printed in any other sets), there will be exactly the same number of each card available in the market - the price there is solely driven by the demand. Wizards has some control in the sense that they can decide which cards to reprint in a given set, or which new cards to print to alter the metagame, but that's very difficult to actually predict, as anybody who plays Magic regularly is aware.

As for the expected value of cards in booster packs: that's always going to be lower than the price of the booster pack. Why? Because stores purchase packs wholesale, and if the expected value of the pack is greater than the MSRP of the pack, they'll just open the packs instead and sell the cards individually.

So Wizards can't tell you the expected value of a given pack, or even predict the price of a given card on the secondary market.

[0] The demand is determined by the metagame, which Wizards has only very loose control over in the short- and medium- term.

[1] Pre-built decks almost never contain cards that are particularly valuable; they're meant for beginners or casual players, whereas the players who care about the valuable cards are "power players", so to speak.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#45

The biggest issue with the games kids are playing is that they are now specifically designed to exploit the young brains reward system, effectively engraining addictive behavior. Getting rid of loot boxes won't change that. I would say the biggest group at risk are under-stimulated, under-supervised children that may spend 8 hours a day hunched over a smartphone. It will be interesting to see the long term implicatio…

Where are kids getting the money from?

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#46

This is a stunning display of ignorance about how the games industry actually works today. Loot boxes, like how Blizzard implements them in Overwatch, are the absolute best business model in an industry that's otherwise filled with predatory pay-to-play DLC business models. With Overwatch, you pay $30 up-front for the game, and that's it. You don't have to pay a cent more, no matter how often or how long you play it.…

"actually executing on a rather ethical business model" artificial scarcity seasonal events with limited availability on loot boxes which are marketed to children, with fancy skins they want, there's nothing ethical about marketing and profiting from children gambling. Just because even less ethical business models exist, Blizzard and Valve don't get a free pass for being slightly less evil than the competition.

> there's nothing ethical about marketing and profiting from children gambling

It's not "gambling". Using the in-game currency (which you get for free by playing), you purchase items directly. The mere existence of uncertainty somewhere in the process doesn't make it "gambling"

Ironically, the randomness serves to decrease the pressure to spend money on the game. If you just purchased the items directly for real-world money, as most other games do, you'd end up in a situation where people would feel pressured to spend money on the game, because obtaining skins actually would be a direct function of money spent.

Additionally, framing this as "children gambling" is pretty suspect. Blizzard doesn't publish official demographic data, but all players have to be over 13 by law, and according to third-party data, the majority of the player base is over 18. Given that teenagers already have less easy access to digital transactions than people over 18, and that they already form the minority of the player base, the burden is on critics to provide concrete data that teenagers are actually being negatively affected by lootboxes. (Which I doubt anyone will, because I'm skeptical that it's even true. Of course, the reason that this issue is continuously framed as "children gambling" is because talking about anything affecting children is a great way to pander in politics, and this whole issue isn't about loot boxes in games anyway.)

> Blizzard and Valve don't get a free pass for being slightly less evil than the competition.

On the flipside, by focusing on loot boxes at the expense of actual, actively predatory business models, you are giving the companies that engage in those other business models a free pass.

You might think, "well, the answer is that we should go after both". Except, that's not going to happen. It's not going to happen not only because people's attention for games-related issues is pretty limited, but also because this isn't about ethical business models at all; politicians like Hassan don't actually care about that. They care about scoring political points, and it's much easier to score political points off lootboxes than pay-to-win or abandonware.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#47
post #42
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the very least, all purchases should include info about the randomization. It shouldn't be legal to sell randomized products while keeping the randomization secret.

Do you think that will prevent the supposed harm? Lottery tickets include odds on the back of the cards. I think that has a very small effects on discouraging play. And those odds are pretty straight forward (1 in 2,000,000 for a 500k payout). I imagine information about how randomization works would be even more indecipherable.

>Do you think that will prevent the supposed harm?

Which supposed harm in this case, there is more than one.

Currently online games are free to swap out algorithms in realtime in order to maximize revenue. You have no idea what your chance of winning even is.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#48

It is actually a very good point. Now that I look into it, I think we should also ban all the booster packages for the board games. These packages can contain or may not contain valuable card and you are effectively gambling when you buy one. It can also become very addictive.

Unlike the US, the UK has quite liberal gambling legislation. You can legally bet online, there's a casino in every town, there's a betting shop on every high street, pubs can legally install slot machines, you'll see adverts for bookmakers during football matches. Crucially, it's all regulated . You have to be 18 to enter a betting shop or a casino. A slot machine has to be inspected by the Gambling Commission and m…

I don't disagree with you, but what about cases where the contents of the loot box can't be traded or sold? Or I suppose one could sell their account with the desirable item but that may be disallowed by ToS and get the account banned.

I dislike loot boxes but I have a hard time seeing it as gambling if you explicitly can not liquidate the assets you receive from it. Then it's just a grab bag.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#49
post #47
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think that will prevent the supposed harm? Lottery tickets include odds on the back of the cards. I think that has a very small effects on discouraging play. And those odds are pretty straight forward (1 in 2,000,000 for a 500k payout). I imagine information about how randomization works would be even more indecipherable.

>Do you think that will prevent the supposed harm? Which supposed harm in this case, there is more than one. Currently online games are free to swap out algorithms in realtime in order to maximize revenue. You have no idea what your chance of winning even is.

I don't think knowing the chances of winning would change behavior of the consumer, much like knowing the lottery payoff is abysmal doesn't stop people from playing. That was my point.

Re: US Senator demands review of loot box policies, citing potential harm

#50
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am. Unless it's not-for-profit or single use (e.g. lottery revenue going to schools), then it's a regressive tax on people who don't understand probability.

Are there any lotteries in the US that don't directly fund public sectors like education or elderly care? I thought that was how lotteries became legal across the states.

Even if it’s funding education, it’s doing so through what is essentially a tax on the poor. Why not tax those that can afford it instead?
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